Mangle Question

[Biznick]

The sim told 'em FA sucked. The sim was right. Out of curiousity, I went to check some DPS logs for Heroic Saurfang. Top Feral had 14k DPS there. Want to know how many times he used Ferocious Bite?



...



Really?



...

Twice. That's right. Two whole times in a single fight. Now, doesn't that make you feel like speccing for a minute increase on an ability you barely use is a total waste of Talent Points?

FA does suck, but imp mangle sucks worse. Especially on a static fight.

this .2% DPS per FA point is with only 2-3 FB's on a 3-4 minute fight. I've done the math on my own logs, and if you provide this SUPER HIGH 14K DPS log, I'll be more than happy to do it on that too.

Of course, results will vary from player to player. Those who like to FB more often will gain more from FA.

Also, do you wanna know how many times that druid used swipe? I bet it was...











....











zero.

[Jon]

we've already got a 30% movement speed increase, I can't see feral charge making much of a dps difference. I pulled out of charge to have a point in NI.

Fail.

I don't see much point in putting points in Nurturing Insticts. Cat survivability is already very high with Predatory Insticts, 30% movement speed, SI, barkskin on 1min cd plus a nice health pool to go with all that.

Cat leap is awesome for leaping over defiles, avoiding shadow prison stacks and just reaching the boss/adds faster just to name a few things.

..

And I spec into both FI and Imp Mangle, nyah nyah.

[bavarcarus]

well, I went and timed it, it takes just under 2 seconds to run 20 yrds. Not a huge dps gain in that perspective. It is useful on occasion, I'm just saying it's not a dps gain.

[Biznick]

well, I went and timed it, it takes just under 2 seconds to run 20 yrds. Not a huge dps gain in that perspective. It is useful on occasion, I'm just saying it's not a dps gain.

Well for one thing, that two seconds is assuming there is nothing between you and the boss, could be an upwards of 5+ seconds depending on what you're charging over. Rather than running around defile, poison, fire, or whatever else, you could be FLYING over.

This extra time that you have on the boss due to not having to run, no matter how little (even two seconds) is a lot more DPS than you'd imagine. That two seconds, assuming 10k DPS is ..... 20K damage. It adds up, and it's more valuable than FA and imp Mangle COMBINED.

Also, if you're looking for survivability you should look towards SI. Nurturing instinct offers basically nothing but over-heals, and it won't save you from a big hit. But if its DPS you want, don't hesitate to take feral charge, its a beautiful - and FUN - ability.

[bavarcarus]

1 second of that 2 seconds is a gcd.

also 10% more healing on a dps could mean more passive healing is enough for you so that healers can help others more. Ask a healer what 10% would mean to them...

Also when I've been dpsing, although it's rather rare, I've never put myself in a position where I had to worry about going through something that took a serious amount of time to get around.

[Duilliath]

really only 14k? im only in 264 gear and pull 13k+ 277 geared druid's should be higher than that

14.5k from the top of my head. Didn't check if that was *with* or *without* Zonebuff

//edit: For logs, as so 'kindly' requested by Biznik.
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/search.../0/25#common25 -> top normal kill, feral has 14.5k actual dps. 2 bites.
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...8560#damageout -> one of the ferals on from the top heroic kills. 13k dps. 5 bites.
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...0200#damageout -> another feral, another top HC saurfang kill. 13k dps, 1 bite.

[littlepiggy]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ral-Cat_Druid/

i think world of logs is used by more people? i don't know if it's better but the dps is higher

[bavarcarus]

yeah, the top 3 there all had ~5% of damage from FB

[Biznick]

//edit: For logs, as so 'kindly' requested by Biznik.

Kitty 1 (2:06 fight length):

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/search.../0/25#common25 -> top normal kill, feral has 14.5k actual dps. 2 bites.

2 bites: 1 crit, 1 hit

FA value: ([FB x .15] / [1790076 - FB x .85]) x 100 = .35% or .07% per point (horrible)
3/3 imp mangle: 6 energy x 2 mins = 12 energy. Practical damage output from extra energy - nothing.

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Kitty 2 (2:43 fight length):

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...8560#damageout -> one of the ferals on from the top heroic kills. 13k dps. 5 bites.

5 bites: 5 crits.

FA value: ([FB x .15] / [2175262 - FB x .85]) x 100 = .93% or 186% per point FA.
3/3 imp mangle value: 2 mins x 6 energy = 12 energy. Practical damage output from extra energy - nothing.

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Kitty 3 (2:14 fight length):

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...0200#damageout

1 bite: 1 crit

FA value: ([FB x .15] / [1747314 - FB x .85]) x 100 = 21.5% or ~.043% per point FA.
3/3 imp mangle value: 2 mins x 6 energy = 12 energy. Practical damage output from extra energy - nothing.

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Funny things to note:

Kitty 1 had an 81% Rip and 78% Rake uptime.
kitty 2 had an 80% Rip and 76% Rake uptime.
Kitty 3 had an 85% Rip and 76% Rake uptime.

Now either WMO just sucks at tracking uptimes, or all of these kitties have room to improve in that aspect.

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In either case, I followed Littlepiggy's link and took the top log: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...709&e=4940#Moz

Following the same formula, and assuming 5/5 FA and 3/3 Imp Mangle since that would be included in any MAX theoretical single-target DPS spec. Moz's log turns out as follows..

FA value: .798% or ~.16% DPS per point of FA.

Now as I said before, this varies from druid to druid and depends on how often one uses FB in the first place. Moz's log had 6 FB, and all were crits on a 2:30 minute fight length. Though he used FB as often as he did, he still managed to maintain an 88% Rip/Rake, and 99% SR uptime.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying imp mangle is bad. I'm actually using it right now. Its just that if all I did was Saurfang and Festergut all day then I wouldn't bother with it. As you can see, theres no REAL application to imp mangle many static fights, and no benefit would be seen from it untill after a 4-5 minute encounter - and those are generally the encounters that require a lot of target switching in the first place.

[Duilliath]

As it stands, I think both Improved Mangle and Feral Aggression are completely optional for most cats. With that, you'll have talent points to spare for either more utility, or a minute damage boost.

[Rambear]

Funny things to note:

Kitty 1 had an 81% Rip and 78% Rake uptime.
kitty 2 had an 80% Rip and 76% Rake uptime.
Kitty 3 had an 85% Rip and 76% Rake uptime.

Now either WMO just sucks at tracking uptimes, or all of these kitties have room to improve in that aspect.

Actually, those uptimes are decent considering a fight thats only 2,5 minues long.
Your first rip won;t be applied say 10 seconds into the fight. Then, since FB > 4 ticks of Rip, you probably lose another 8 seconds at the end of the fight, since you'll FB instead of Rip when the boss is that low. Thats 18 seconds on a 150 second fight. Take into account no clipping and some latency, and having a down-time on Rip is easily explained.

Then, for Rake, the same applies to an extend. Rake is great, but during berserk most of us will be spamming shred due to the higher DpE at that point. Especially on rip-extending shreds shred takes priority over rake. Add in all the other factors on Rip (lack of uptime at the start, letting it drop in the last seconds, latency).

It is no surprise these uptimes are lowish. Part due to the speed of the fight, part due to the fact that ArP changes the prio of FB vs. Rip, and differing DpE during berserk make that 90-95% uptimes are just not that realistic.

[Biznick]

Actually, those uptimes are decent considering a fight thats only 2,5 minues long.
Your first rip won;t be applied say 10 seconds into the fight. Then, since FB > 4 ticks of Rip, you probably lose another 8 seconds at the end of the fight, since you'll FB instead of Rip when the boss is that low. Thats 18 seconds on a 150 second fight. Take into account no clipping and some latency, and having a down-time on Rip is easily explained.

Then, for Rake, the same applies to an extend. Rake is great, but during berserk most of us will be spamming shred due to the higher DpE at that point. Especially on rip-extending shreds shred takes priority over rake. Add in all the other factors on Rip (lack of uptime at the start, letting it drop in the last seconds, latency).

It is no surprise these uptimes are lowish. Part due to the speed of the fight, part due to the fact that ArP changes the prio of FB vs. Rip, and differing DpE during berserk make that 90-95% uptimes are just not that realistic.

I was thinking the same thing, but they have between 30 and 45 seconds of Rip/Rake downtime, and by any standard - thats pretty horrible. For those uptimes to be decent (at least 85%) the fight would have to have been between 3:20 and 5 minutes long, and kinda ridiculous.

To have a decent uptime (somewhere between 85-90%) on a 2:30 minute fight they can't be without it for more than 22 - 15 seconds. Given that Rake is applied within the first few GCD's and Rip is shortly after - neither is a stretch, and that was shown by Moz's log.

They just could've done better ... ?? /shrug

[Rambear]

I was thinking the same thing, but they have between 30 and 45 seconds of Rip/Rake downtime, and by any standard - thats pretty horrible. For those uptimes to be decent (at least 85%) the fight would have to have been between 3:20 and 5 minutes long, and kinda ridiculous.

To have a decent uptime (somewhere between 85-90%) on a 2:30 minute fight they can't be without it for more than 22 - 15 seconds. Given that Rake is applied within the first few GCD's and Rip is shortly after - neither is a stretch, and that was shown by Moz's log.

They just could've done better ... ?? /shrug

Marginally better. Its also a matter of how many FB they used. The example with 6 bites I can more easily understand the lack of uptime. Still, what with Bites being worth losing 3-4 ticks of Rip, and dropping rake when a Rip-extending shred is available (as well as ignoring rake during berserk) I can see why they would lose some up-time.

Mind you, I also think 76% rake up is a tadbit low. But these are people pulling 13-14.5k, so I would hope they know what they are doing (unless they get TotT chained,, Hysteria etc.)

[Deleted]

I recently calculated this as well, based my data on LK25H tho where i mangle a lot more than on a static fight.

Quoted from my guild's forums:

Since mizer asked me about the improved mangle vs improved FB talent points, I decided to sim/calculate if it was truly the right choice to take imp mangle for LK instead of imp FB.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/u...ses&boss=36597
Number of successful mangles = 55
Number of Clearcasting procs = 133
Number of energy-using damaging specials = ~850.
So number of mangles that actually cost me energy = (850-133)/850*55=46.
Amount of energy saved by imp. mangle = 46*6 = 278 energy saved in total.
With 10500 EDPS, and 35% of that white dps I do about 6.8k yellow EDPS.
Including king of the jungle/revitalize/etc i gain about 12 energy per second, so my EDPE = 6,800/12 = 570.
So the total dmg gained is 570*278 = 158k.

FB dmg is a bit easier to calculate: I did a total of 476,751 FB dmg. 9% of this is 43k.

So imp mangle is about 3.5x as good as imp fb on lich king hc.

Another option is to drop improved swipe for improved FB.

My total swipe damage was 2,968,118. Taking away the 30% from the talent would mean I lose 2,968k-2,968k/1.3 = 774k. So that's not an option :P

[SkyBlueAri]

I recently calculated this as well, based my data on LK25H tho where i mangle a lot more than on a static fight.

Quoted from my guild's forums:

heh i might hav a little trouble letting go of my imp swipe. I think ill do it though, if it will help my single target dps.
Also if someone with a really big calculator could calculate wat the dps difference is with 1 point and 2 points in imp mangle and the rest in FB. That would be good, because maybe its useful to hav only 2 poitns in imp mangle instead of 3. Just curious, cheers!

[Deleted]

You could try Rawr3 for that, it has a lot of options for defining multi-target fights.

[Biznick]

Marginally better. Its also a matter of how many FB they used. The example with 6 bites I can more easily understand the lack of uptime. Still, what with Bites being worth losing 3-4 ticks of Rip, and dropping rake when a Rip-extending shred is available (as well as ignoring rake during berserk) I can see why they would lose some up-time.

Mind you, I also think 76% rake up is a tadbit low. But these are people pulling 13-14.5k, so I would hope they know what they are doing (unless they get TotT chained,, Hysteria etc.)

The kitty druid with 6 FB's had the best uptime - 88% Rip/Rake. Those are within what generally considered the standard uptimes for kitty druids.

I'm not really understanding why anyone would ignore Rake during Berserk as every abilities DPE goes up by 100%, not just Shred. And yeah, you can say that using FB rather than refreshing Rip/Rake was a good thing, but you can't really know exactly how long you're going to have them down.

Even now, with all the gear I have, I can't give an exact answer as to how long it takes to get Rip back up after blowing all my energy on FB. It really all has to do with RNG, and in my book its better to be safe than sorry.

Also, the feral druids that I took the logs from DID recieve Hysteria. I dunno about all of them, but at least one did. I can't really check from the computer I'm on atm because it belongs on a short bus.

[Biznick]

Since mizer asked me about the improved mangle vs improved FB talent points, I decided to sim/calculate if it was truly the right choice to take imp mangle for LK instead of imp FB.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/u...ses&boss=36597
Number of successful mangles = 55
Number of Clearcasting procs = 133
Number of energy-using damaging specials = ~850.
So number of mangles that actually cost me energy = (850-133)/850*55=46.
Amount of energy saved by imp. mangle = 46*6 = 278 energy saved in total.
With 10500 EDPS, and 35% of that white dps I do about 6.8k yellow EDPS.
Including king of the jungle/revitalize/etc i gain about 12 energy per second, so my EDPE = 6,800/12 = 570.
So the total dmg gained is 570*278 = 158k.

FB dmg is a bit easier to calculate: I did a total of 476,751 FB dmg. 9% of this is 43k.

So imp mangle is about 3.5x as good as imp fb on lich king hc.

Another option is to drop improved swipe for improved FB.

My total swipe damage was 2,968,118. Taking away the 30% from the talent would mean I lose 2,968k-2,968k/1.3 = 774k. So that's not an option

This is good, but the EDPE might actually be higher than what you're calculating. Im not sure where you're getting this formula from

So number of mangles that actually cost me energy = (850-133)/850*55=46

But I would think the only way to figure out if, or how many times, you used Mangle on an OoC proc would be to go through your logs and do it manually. Also, you get a calculated 12 EPS just from energy regen and TF alone - so revitalize would only make that higher. (I'm not really sure how good revitalize is now, it used to be horrible!)

All in all though, its hard to calculate things like this on dynamic fights. Theres a lot of variables, and a lot of target switching can mean FB's getting used at 3-5 points with > 35 energy just to dump energy before a phase change, or whatever else.

[Duilliath]

heh i might hav a little trouble letting go of my imp swipe. I think ill do it though, if it will help my single target dps.
Also if someone with a really big calculator could calculate wat the dps difference is with 1 point and 2 points in imp mangle and the rest in FB. That would be good, because maybe its useful to hav only 2 poitns in imp mangle instead of 3. Just curious, cheers!

If you can spare two cat builds, one AoE and one Single Target would be fine. Failing that, I'd say Improved Swipe is pretty much a must have as there's various places where it's simply too nice not to have. This includes boss fights.

[Charo]

And what boss fights would those be? Lich King? Leave it to the ret paladin and fury warrior... Sindragosa Ice Blocks? Yeah that matters. VD adds? /eyeroll Lady Deathwhisper adds? because those matter... Saurfang adds? Don't touch them as melee. ...

-maybe- Bonespikes, but see Lich King example.

edit: @ the "swipe talent" being at all useful in ICC.