[Cataclysm] Heroics - Scaling?

[Enola]

Again the same crap, Its a HC you are suposed to wipe, a very good group should wipe, a good group should wipe more, a crap group should disband. And make no error most were crap groups, Im not sayng it should be a 150%pro's only place, but how many actualy had to read and learn about the hc's, before doing them?
And again you point to the loken exeption, well exeption my ass, you had to run 5 or 6 yards from the boss and then run back in, 4 or 5 times, incredible hard indeed.
And no my friend, there werent much better geared persons in the 1st weeks of Wotlk, well some but was prety rare to find in pugs.
You know how the progression in Wotlk worked from the start? Nax 25 with 10 in part time, Ulduar 25 with 10 in part time, well at least for me, hc's forget that you never had hc's, keep believing you were doing them if you want, this discussion is completely pointless aniway.
But lets think a bit more, these so called hc's, can be done without a healer or tank, some can be soloed granted in extremely high gear by a very small number of classes, you dont just over gear these hc's you enter in god mode, that should never happen to a hc, in high levs of gear they arent easy, they are a joke.

[Enola]

It's really funny watching people complain about heroics.

In TBC it was "this shit is too hard! Finding groups is impossible! I'm never going to be able to gear up and raid black temple!"

now we get a very effecient dungeon finder tool which requires no work to get groups together, shit you can get all your dailies done waiting for queues. Instances take 10-20 minutes each, and give us the resources to quickly raid at the second highest level adequately (icc normal). How the fuck are people still complaining? Frankly I love how heroics are now, my rogue hit 80 4 days ago and basically all I need are 3 more drops/emblem purchases and I'm ICC ready, I play like 3 hours a day. Shit is dope.

Thank you for proving my point,
"Frankly I love how heroics are now, my rogue hit 80 4 days ago and basically all I need are 3 more drops/emblem purchases and I'm ICC ready, I play like 3 hours a day. Shit is dope. "
Casual ftw no doubt.
Now i actualy dont realy care about you and your gear, what we want is some hc's that give us some chalenges, purely optional for me they dont even need to drop gear, even achievment dont realy care, they do a new dificulty lev purely optional were i can grab 4 friends while not raiding and have a laugh, happy enough.
You know the feeling we used to have after completing a BRD in vanilla, i want it back pure and simple.

[tibben]

you dont just over gear these hc's you enter in god mode, that should never happen to a hc, in high levs of gear they arent easy, they are a joke.

Why are you still running Heroic Dungeons if they are so easy a caveman can do it? There is not a single instance in all of WoW that has ever not been a joke when geared with the top end gear for that expansion. At what point did you think Heroic Ramps was challenging when wearing T6 + Sunwell gear? And BRD? Really? Did you actually play in Vanilla? It's a ridiculously long instance but was never challenging nor was it offered in a heroic format. Blizzard isn't going to scale dungeons based on gear because you feel it is too easy now that you are 3 or 4 tiers above what was available when the heroic instance first came out. It is a 5 man dungeon designed to help get gear to enter the very first raid offered in this expansion. It shouldn't matter if it is Heroic or not. Heroics were not even offered until after TBC came out and they were so hard that people actually had to have raid gear to finish many of them in the beginning. After T6 came out and Sunwell came out the Heroics were a joke for anyone that was geared from the end of expansion content just like it is today. Even if they had made the WotLK instances every bit as challenging as the TBC ones used to be, people would still grossly out-gear them today and you would be complaining about...I don't know, how easy Lich King was to get down for those guilds that you aren't in because you complain about anything and everything for no apparent reason.

[Enola]

Why are you still running Heroic Dungeons if they are so easy a caveman can do it? There is not a single instance in all of WoW that has ever not been a joke when geared with the top end gear for that expansion. At what point did you think Heroic Ramps was challenging when wearing T6 + Sunwell gear? And BRD? Really? Did you actually play in Vanilla? It's a ridiculously long instance but was never challenging nor was it offered in a heroic format. Blizzard isn't going to scale dungeons based on gear because you feel it is too easy now that you are 3 or 4 tiers above what was available when the heroic instance first came out. It is a 5 man dungeon designed to help get gear to enter the very first raid offered in this expansion. It shouldn't matter if it is Heroic or not. Heroics were not even offered until after TBC came out and they were so hard that people actually had to have raid gear to finish many of them in the beginning. After T6 came out and Sunwell came out the Heroics were a joke for anyone that was geared from the end of expansion content just like it is today. Even if they had made the WotLK instances every bit as challenging as the TBC ones used to be, people would still grossly out-gear them today and you would be complaining about...I don't know, how easy Lich King was to get down for those guilds that you aren't in because you complain about anything and everything for no apparent reason.

Go to TBC HC's withot a healer or tank pre 2.4 good luck, wich patch are we now?
BRD wasnt hard in terms of abilities damage, but it was hard in the amount of work you had to put in to finish it, may not be your case but the feeling of doing it was pretty epic, something i just cant get from any hc atm, btw were did i sayed BRD was hard?
Did you read the second post, i dont mind if they dont scale them, dont even like the scaling idea, think its too easy to go wrong, what I want is a extra mode of dificulty, purely optional if you dont want dont do it simple.
Well I would prefer normals hardened to current hc lev so the gear on them would be entrance to normal raids, and hc's being worked has something above it even above starting raids, but thats just me.
Your point is hc's in wotlk were hard at start, my point is at start you should be working on normals not hc's, that alone show imo that hc's were too easy, at the current patch with the current raid gear what are they? you actualy believe if you enter a HC with a full group above 5.5k gs it doesnt feel like a joke?
And your right i havent downed LK, in fact i stoped raiding at ulduar, was the second guild on my serv to down Algalon, being the first guild at the time the 7th in EU, not that it actualy matters for a discussion about hc's.
To your first question why am I stuill runing heroics, because the dam badge system forces me to and i dont have many more options, i do usualy have more fun doing old world dungeons while leveling with my alts though.

[tibben]

To your first question why am I stuill runing heroics, because the dam badge system forces me to and i dont have many more options, i do usualy have more fun doing old world dungeons while leveling with my alts though.

Now we're talking. While Cataclysm may not offer your suggestion of another tier of difficulty for Heroic instances, at least (assuming you do decide to raid) you won't feel obligated to run a heroic every single day for badges. If you don't raid then I would expect the Heroics to at least present a challenge. Especially considering that they (Blizzard Staff) are saying that they want to bring back some of the challenge from TBC where you actually have to use CC or Focus Fire a target in at least a few pulls in the instances or players will die.

If you do raid in Cataclysm then hopefully with the new system you will be capped out on "badges" (Hero/Valor points) and you won't feel like you are forced into running a heroic instance every day once you are geared to the point where they no longer present a challenge. From the way they described these changes this is how I see things working and I couldn't be happier. I don't like feeling forced to run heroics just to get an extra Primordial Saronite a week.

I suppose if they added a new "Incredibly Heroic" version it would give a reason to go back and try the instances again with more gear, but imho after a year of running those instances almost every day I just want to do something else.

BRD wasnt hard in terms of abilities damage, but it was hard in the amount of work you had to put in to finish it, may not be your case but the feeling of doing it was pretty epic, something i just cant get from any hc atm

Another point we can agree on. BRD was an epic 5 man encounter and I'm afraid we won't see that again. Part of the issue is the idea of heroic daily dungeons which has created this "go go go" atmosphere where the vast majority of players just want to get in, aoe everything to death and receive loots and badges. I wouldn't mind have some instances like this in Cataclysm, but I also don't always have 2 to 3 hours to clear an instance on my non-raid nights. I actually have a family to take care of so I don't get to play every waking moment.

I like the idea of having a 5 man that is as challenging as a raid with as much or more variety of bosses. For one thing it's easier to find 4 other people than 9 or 24 and for another thing sometimes it's just more fun with a smaller group of people that you know. I would not want to PuG or <shudder> use LFD tool to run an instance like that though.

[Pizzasemmel]

Since i don't think anyone mentioned it yet, here is my idea how it could work out pretty well. (and it is simple as well, god this is awesome^^)

HP of the mobs scales with the average GS of the dds, dmg dealt by the mobs scales with GS of tank/healer

Might be a bit tricky to tune, but blizzard has surprissed us more than once

[Sunshine]

BRD was quite epic in scale, more like a 5-man raid than a regular instance. While I wouldn't mind some sort of raid like that (longer reset, better loot, etc.), I think it would be a mistake to have it be the standard 5-man size on either regular or heroic.

For me, the optimal length of a dungeon is ~30 minutes. Long enough to provide some interesting battles, but short enough to squeeze in between other activities. The real key to making it enjoyable is retaining some difficulty, which it sounds like Blizzard is trying to accomplish by forcing more CC and so on (which is a subject for another thread) -- some sort of challenge other than a giant pile of AoE.

To provide an epic feeling in 5-mans, I think the new ICC ones did a nice job of providing both epic scope across the entire set of instances and also discrete chunks for shorter experiences. Perhaps in the future, there could be additional rewards for completing the entire thing at once, either additional boss / loot / badges or more cosmetic things like a chance at a mount / tabard / minipet / whatever.

HP of the mobs scales with the average GS of the dds, dmg dealt by the mobs scales with GS of tank/healer

Not a bad idea, but they'd have to make sure it's worth it to wear your best gear (not omg easy in blue gear and more impossible in epic gear) and that they're taking into account the gear for your active role, not just your overall gear (e.g., offspec tank with lower quality gear than their main dps spec).

[Dhurn]

Thank you for proving my point,
"Frankly I love how heroics are now, my rogue hit 80 4 days ago and basically all I need are 3 more drops/emblem purchases and I'm ICC ready, I play like 3 hours a day. Shit is dope. "
Casual ftw no doubt.
Now i actualy dont realy care about you and your gear, what we want is some hc's that give us some chalenges, purely optional for me they dont even need to drop gear, even achievment dont realy care, they do a new dificulty lev purely optional were i can grab 4 friends while not raiding and have a laugh, happy enough.
You know the feeling we used to have after completing a BRD in vanilla, i want it back pure and simple.

I guess I could be considered a casual, I probably only manage to play 20 hours a week 8 raiding, simply because I just don't have the time for more. I hear what you're sayin with wanting something more like BRD tho. That place was so awesome just for the sheer options you have when you go in there, and usuaally when you got a BRD group it was like well, there goes my Saturday afternoon I'm gonna be doin this for the next 3 hours. It was fun, not a quick way to easy loot that people screamed GOGOGOGOGO at the start of.

The whole game has been changed in that manner though, e.g. AV battles of old often lasting 4-48 hours long, not one of the quickest bgs to farm. Gear too, becoming quick and simple to acquire, as opposed to farming the same 5 man over and over for some shitty itemized blues, so you could step into MC. As a tank or healer in wotlk you're full epics and raid ready in a matter of days.

So I guess I agree with you, but I enjoy being able to raid quickly, since that is the most fun aspect of the game for me. Do wish the mentality toward clearing dungeons was a bit different though. Skipping bosses, getting pissed at tanks who don't chain pull 3 packs at once, etc, all very unfortunate.

Unfortunately I feel the "epic" experience that is gettable from a 5 man might be irretrievable, it was just the initial awesomeness associated with playing the game

[Skutch]

it could work.
Take it one step further and have all dungeons scale to character level and gear, you could run RFC at level 80.