Where to beacon @ valithria HM

[Xtra]

I'm pretty sure resto shammies out perform paladins in healing on Valithria.

Shammies are second best, but with a distance behind paladins (assuming both are good players). Logs confirm this.

[Firecrest]

So my point in a nutshell is that the person who you want to send into the portals is the person who's healing on the boss will be increased by the most in absolute terms, and because paladins start with by far the highest healing on the boss when they're not taking the portals there can be situations where that means it's not us.

See, that's what I thought you were saying and is totally wrong. You want to down the boss as fast as possible. This is the point of the fight. Not improving people's healing. You want to have fun with epeen, that's all good and well. But it's not what you're "supposed" to be doing. Any consideration given to how much a player's HPS will improve is irrelevant when compared to what you can put in the portals to heal the boss to full in the least amount of time.

It seems as though what you're saying would almost always come to the same conclusion though. But I have to ask what are these "situations where it's not us"? The only time Holy Pallies should be outhealed while taking portals is if they are bad, lagged or terribly geared. But, if that's the case, you've got a carry in your raid and either already know it or should be looking to replace.

Wait, are you "mounted" when you're flying in the portals?

Yes. Although I've found that fairly often you can fly right through a cloud and be out of range by the time it pops while under the effect of AM. So I normally have to pause at each cloud for a moment. It's turned out to be more effort than it's worth (and probably negates most, if not all, of the benefit of having AM up in the first place). So I just run Crusader without AM most of the time.

I'm pretty sure resto shammies out perform paladins in healing on Valithria.

And I'm pretty sure I already went over this in this thread and showed where WoL logs show that Pallies make up 35-38 of the top 40 healers on every mode and difficulty of this fight. It boggles my mind that people could think otherwise. What kind of terrible ass Holly Pallies are you guys raiding with?

[Ryme]

Sorry, I don't spend a huge amount of time watching your posts.

Bear in mind that World of Logs is probably slightly less useful for something like this, as most would simply default to paladins for portals.

Having said that, I've looked at the numbers, it seems the Beacon trick is swinging it for holy paladins.

[thoukaia]

Firecrest i think you're missing the point that Azyoulike is trying to make, i'll give an example to make it sound less complicated:

You have 2 equally geared and skilled healers, one paladin and one shaman.
The Shaman does average 35k HPS on boss when taking portals.
The Paladin does 40k HPS on boss when taking portals.

But the thing is that the paladin can raidheal/tankheal as efficiently as the shaman, while healing the boss with beacon. The shaman cant do that, he can only raidheal/tankheal.

So if the paladin can do, say, 7k HPS on the boss while tankhealing/raidhealing outside portals, the shaman-in, paladin-out setup would make 42k HPS on boss, which is better than the 40k of the shaman-out, paladin-in.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Beacon doesn't work that way. It applys the normal amount of healing to the beacon target even if the target you're targetting has a healing buff, such as Gaurdian spirit.

I would either throw it on a tank and constantly focus Dreamwalker, or throw it on dreamwalker and help raid heal considering Glyph of HL hits for a shitton with the buff(It's just more of a hassle, but it'll help your HPS). You could also just toss it on yourself if you want to be lazy, in Heroic DW you have that kind of wiggle room, 100 times esspecially with the 15% buff.

Yeah had the same discussion with my guild. Many seem to be confused with the mechanics of beacon of light.

It works like this:

Healing target
Paladin----|
\_Healing target with Beacon

Most people think it works like this:

Paladin ---Healing target ---- Beacon target.

[Azyoulike]

See, that's what I thought you were saying and is totally wrong. You want to down the boss as fast as possible. This is the point of the fight. Not improving people's healing. You want to have fun with epeen, that's all good and well. But it's not what you're "supposed" to be doing. Any consideration given to how much a player's HPS will improve is irrelevant when compared to what you can put in the portals to heal the boss to full in the least amount of time.
aiding with?

You still don't seem to be understanding me, I don't disagree the aim is to heal the boss as fast as possible, but you are neglecting that healers outside the portals can ALSO HEAL THE BOSS!

However the amount by which they heal the boss isn't equal by a long chalk. A paladin outside heals the boss tremendously, a shaman not so much.

This really isn't a terribly complicated concept to grasp, it's not about epeen, or improving people's healing or any crap - it's just about getting the maximum total HPS onto the boss and ending the fight as fast as possible.

It seems as though what you're saying would almost always come to the same conclusion though. But I have to ask what are these "situations where it's not us"? The only time Holy Pallies should be outhealed while taking portals is if they are bad, lagged or terribly geared. But, if that's the case, you've got a carry in your raid and either already know it or should be looking to replace.

Ok - take the 2nd best shaman parse from WoL and the 2nd best pally (the best of both are outliers as can be seen by fight duration, but the 2nd best pally and shaman have similar combat durations and so presumably roughly equal buff stacks)

The pally is doing 49k HPS, the shaman 38k. The pally is better right? Now ask yourself this - what would the paladin's healing on the boss be with no portal? It would be easily 10k just from the beacon on valithria and healing the raid. If the paladin was blowing CDs, and not having to plea, and GS was being used on CD then I think more like 14k HPS would be a reasonable estimate.

What would the shaman's healing be on the boss if he stayed outside the portal? That's a far harder question to answer - I suspect it would be quite low, of order 2-3k hps, but you'd have to look at your own parses to see how your healers outside perform. I guess it will depend very much on how much damage your raid is taking, and how hard the external healers are working.

So given our semi-made up numbers, you would do just as well putting the 2nd best paladin out as putting the 2nd best shaman out.

Again I reiterate - I'm not suggesting that paladins should be sometimes left out of portals because they're bad in portals - I'm suggesting that they're so amazing outside that it dilutes how amazing they are inside.

[Firecrest]

I see your point. However, I think you fall prey to overt theorycrafting here.

First off, realistically, when do you choose between a Holy Pally and a Shaman for portals? You don’t. You send both. We do three healers in portals, but I guess most guilds are doing four? If that’s the case, you would need to have two Pallies and two Shaman – and then one more Pally or Shaman to be making that kind of call. I doubt too many raids are facing that kind of a decision.

Second, and more importantly, is our true effectiveness outside of portals. I disagree that we are "amazing" outside of portals. In fact, I'd not even term us as "decent" for the job. Sure we can heal the boss via Beacon. But what about the rest of the raid? We use two healers outside of portals (relying heavily on the OPness of Disc under the 15% buff) and I think many guilds are using three. So, since your Shaman's going in anyway, you’re talking about replacing a Druid or Priest with a Pally for a raid healing role. It’s not like the tanks need a lot of healing. Mostly it’s just raid splash. What good are we for that? And what good are they in portals?

[Azyoulike]

First off, realistically, when do you choose between a Holy Pally and a Shaman for portals? You don’t. You send both. We do three healers in portals, but I guess most guilds are doing four? If that’s the case, you would need to have two Pallies and two Shaman – and then one more Pally or Shaman to be making that kind of call. I doubt too many raids are facing that kind of a decision.

Well this thread isn't exclusively 25man, in 10 man you might conceivably have pally & 2 resto druids - it wouldn't be ideal but it would work for everything pre-LK. Besides - you're making what I think is an unwarrented assumption that resto druids can't do decent numbers portal healing. I accept that the numbers on WoL are low for resto druids, but I suspect that is as much to do with relatively fewer of them getting to take portals due to the widespread belief that they are only raid healers. The only healer I would never send into a portal would be priests, they had their single target healing neutered back in 3.1/3.2 and it has never recovered.

Second, and more importantly, is our true effectiveness outside of portals. I disagree that we are "amazing" outside of portals. In fact, I'd not even term us as "decent" for the job. Sure we can heal the boss via Beacon. But what about the rest of the raid? We use two healers outside of portals (relying heavily on the OPness of Disc under the 15% buff) and I think many guilds are using three. So, since your Shaman's going in anyway, you’re talking about replacing a Druid or Priest with a Pally for a raid healing role. It’s not like the tanks need a lot of healing. Mostly it’s just raid splash. What good are we for that? And what good are they in portals?

But again the aim here is to get the boss down as fast as possible, and holy pallies are certainly adequate for the raid healing part of the job outside. We have nice tools for managing the main risk factors like a bad blazing skelly, and we have good defensive CDs if we get a spot of bad tanking. Are we as efficient at healing the raid as a shaman or druid? No they're better ofc, but we're adequate to it (especially in 10) and we're providing 10k HPS onto the boss while we're at it which they can't possibly do.

You may be right - this may all be entirely theoretic, and anyway the encounter is so easy that it may not really matter, but the point still stands.