Blizzard is NOT KILLING 25 MANS.

[Jezpalulaj]

If I see one more person talking about how there's no reason to do 25 mans in cataclysm because more gear doesn't make up for having more players, I am going to throw a fit.

If you READ the patch notes, they say quite explicitly:
"...so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold)"

For those of you who don't have good reading comprehension, this means that if 10 man raids drop 2 items per boss, 25 man raids WILL drop 6 items per boss. Even if the drops-per-person were equal, this would be:
2 items / 10 people = 1/5 item per person
5 items / 25 people = 1/5 item per person
Blizzard has explicitly stated that 25 mans will drop a higher quantity of loot PER PLAYER, meaning that if 10 man bosses drop 2 items, 25 man bosses will drop AT LEAST 6 (I'm not guessing this, this is the direct consequence of what was stated in the blue post). I find this unlikely, because there would be a huge gear inflation very early in cataclysm if this were the case.

I think it's much more likely that 10 man raids will drop 1 item per boss, and 25 mans will remain at 3 items per boss. This will give the same ratio as I just stated, but with much less gear inflation from the guilds that raid 25 mans.

Another side effect of this is that 1 loot per boss in 10 mans will NOT gear up your 10 man group very fast. The 25 mans are going to be much more worthwhile, because you will A) get more gear, for reasons just stated, and B) have a much lower chance that someone in the raid doesn't need the item, which is entirely possible in 10 mans after the first couple weeks.
If I'm right about this, it will take a significantly longer time to gear up from 10 mans, which will not only be less fun, but will hinder 10 man progression. Yes, the mechanics of 10 man raids are generally easier to organize, but if the difficulty is the same, people raiding 25 mans regularly will have an easier time progressing than 10 man runners.

25 man raids will be considered better for this reason, and I fully expect that the 25 man guild will continue to be the standard; Blizzard is making this change only so that people who focus on 10 man raiding aren't being obliterated in progression by people who have killed a few bosses in 25 man and can steamroll 10 man with higher level loots.

So far, I've only talked about guilds, but I think that the change won't kill 25 man pugs, either. If the only difference in difficulty is in the group assembly, then YES, lots of people will be happy to raid a 25 man to get more loot out of it, especially considering that people will want to make the most of their ONE chance at that raid for the week. There still are significant benefits to raiding 25 mans under this new system, and I think that they will outweigh the annoyances of finding an additional 15 non-scrubs.
Right now, there are a lot of really sucky 25 man groups put together, because people consider the raid lock EXPENDABLE. All this is going to do is make it so that raid leaders are a little more careful when they put their groups together, and I expect the 25 man pug raiding experience to become much more enjoyable as a result.

Your paranoia is annoying and completely unfounded. Stop it.

[Clicheman]

Agreed. The higher quantity of loot per person per boss is the important thing to recognize here. However, we should also consider that we are getting more points per boss. Chances are that will also come in handy.

[Gansta]

I never said they do. But they' re changing player's prospects.

[Durandro]

Either that or they are going to make vendor trash more common in 25's

[AuthurDent]

Your post is flawed in some areas...

Saying less items will get DE'd in 25 man is ridiculous... As since there is "more loot" per person.. it will have MORE likelihood for an item to drop that peeps don't need after the same amount of "initial" raiding.

You are also assuming several things that will be wrong (almost for sure). 10 man will drop 2 pieces of loot... and I can almost bet that 25 man will drop 6.. (definitely no more than 7)

The REAL issue tho isn't that there's an advantage or not to 25 man raiding.. it's that it is DYING without any help from these changes... in fact these changes are a reaction to it.

25 man guilds are failing... they are dropping like flies. Even some of the world top 25 guilds are merging to keep their numbers of dedicated raiders at usable levels for their progression. Decent 10 man raiding guilds are getting more and more casual and pugging 10/25 first four has come to be an acceptable thing to MANY players. The reason lies in the overall deline of the game.

These changes are to do 3 things... 1) Give serious 25 man raiders a reason to stay in the game by allowing them to develop "uber" 10 man teams (or at least SOME semblance of continuing 25 man raiding)... 2) Remove the "dis-incentive" of current 10 mans getting lesser loot so there is incentive to do better than just first 4 bosses and 3) Reduce overall complexity for developers... one would guess so they can release raiding content mroe frequently. (Instead of 1 12-boss raid to last us 4-6 months.. they may be able to release a 5-6 boss raid every 6-8 weeks. (a slick way to hide gating)


You may very well be in a healthy 25 man guild atm... but it will be interesting to see how that guild stands come level 85.

Count on it.. 10 man is the new focus for Blizzard... 25 man will still have a "few" tasters... but noone will care. In the end it swill ALWAYS be 10 man that gets the server firsts.. and gets geared faster than 25 man.... simply because they can and will progress faster and therefore get more loot (per person)because of it.

You will see even the top world guilds send in multiple 10 man teams to get the world firsts... because they aren;t about to let other guilds get the "records' while they lock themselves into 25 man.

[Seregon]

Agreed. The higher quantity of loot per person per boss is the important thing to recognize here. However, we should also consider that we are getting more points per boss. Chances are that will also come in handy.

While I'm sure this is the case, I'm thinking they're going to let strict 10 player raiders get their weekly cap of points by doing stuff like WRQ and daily hcs. So I don't really know which is preferable...

[kernspalt]

25 raiding will allways be the place to get "Fame"

This is the main reason why 25 raids will last

[Asmin]

R.I.P 25 , lets start a hall of fame on cata :

[Khraine]

Blizz won't kill the 25 mans the community will

[Yazus]

To everyone saying 10 mans is better than 25 mans:

They will give you cap of points that you can earn in both 10 and 25 mans. So you WILL have to choose which one.

You won't be able to raid both raid twice per week (10 and 25 man), or to raid two different raids (we will see what the Cap will be).
So, you say 10 mans are better? How is better to take the risk, get locked to a 10 man, have a small chance that your equip drops, and another small chance that you win it better than going to 25 mans, get locked to it but have a big chance to get what you want?

25 mans WILL progress faster, and WILL gear you WAY faster than 10 mans.

10 Mans will be easier to manage and such, but you'll get equipped later.

Also 10/25 sharing the same lock, will make players choose more wisely "Am I going to trade risk for easy?"
People will keep doing 10 mans, but not in the same way they do now. Now guilds send 10 man gropus to arthas to get world first because 10 mans are easier. When 10 mans will be on the same difficulty of 25 mans, people wont be sending 10 mans groups anymore, but 25

[killuh]

Yarr i haz cookiezz

[Izzard]

Blizz won't kill the 25 mans the community will

[Reginald]

Don't forget that 25 mans also allow for more players to slack so it's easier to gear up newer characters while in 10 man if one person fails it can destroy the whole fight.
plus more badges = faster emblem loot

[skakruk]

but now casuals can get the same gear as i get

And thats awesome!!

[jtstormrage]

They are killing 25 mans.

You have all of the extra hassle of putting together a 25 man group, all of the stress or organising it and allocating tasks and none of the extra reward.

Yes you get more loot but you can ultimately get the same gear in 10 mans. You do not get better loot.

25 mans will only happen now in big guilds to keep everyone happy.

But big guilds will recruit less because they can do the same bosses with the same achievements and slowly they will die out.

Just watch.

I think you are underestimating the importance of loot and high level achievements and the incentives they offers.

[Scorage]

Now we know that there is a cap on how many Valor points you can gain per week.

If, completing a raid in 25 player mode will grant you enough points per week that so you can entirely skip doing the daily heroic from dungeon tool, we may just as well speak about death of 10 Man raids instead.

[Avatar]

Cataclysm will be the last expansion for a long time. Why hurry..the points cap is not so important because you have time enough to earn points..more than enough.

10man ftw....

[fled]

As a tank, there's no incentive to raid 25. I'll be rolling against the same odds in 25 so 10 mans is all pluses for tanks. However who knows what blizz will do.

[skakruk]

Guild leaders rejoice! now you can kick all those people you dont particularly like, instead of keeping them to fill the 25 spots.

[Gyrllsbear]

People are saying 25 mans are pointless in Cata? So, for two expansions now people have cried and cried over how the old 40 mans were great because of their size. Now they are thinking of ditching 25 mans because they only get a few more drops? Make your minds up people. Do you want larger raids or are you just stupid?