Sindragosa

[Pastor]

Recently 2 of us rogues switched from armor pen ( that I liked) to the agility / haste combo that was suggested by the Rawr program and backed up by Simcraft ( agility being the most important stat per it's results)

The issue here though is Sindgragosa.

Basically, you get a de-buff from the boss that stacks every time you hit the boss, go past 5 stacks and you are likely going to die. The way to get this de-buff off is typically to stop attacking at 4 or 5 stacks and wait for it to drop off (it adds a stack and refreshes it's full duration if you attack while the de-buff is on you)

With agility and haste based dps you use a great number or fast attacks with less damage per each attack, armor pen and attack power based dps uses less attacks but does more damage with each attack.

If the de-buff is allowing you to get 4 attacks and than stop, it seems to both of us that the armor-pen and attack power based rogues have a much better dps output.

One fight isn't enough to warrent a change of your dps set-up, BUT, if you are deciding between specs when you hit 80 and start to get geared up you may want to weigh this in your decision process.

[Taalyn]

Are you asking a question or just posting false information?

It's a 20% chance per attack to add a stack of Chilled to the Bone, you don't get one with every single attack unless you're extremely unlucky.

Unless you're doing hard mode and/or are mutilate, you typically don't have to worry about stopping your DPS to let the debuff fall off. You can cloak the first stack around 5-6 and by the time you get another 3-4 stack she casts Blistering Cold and unless you are vanish-immuning it, your stacks will fall off before you have to run back in. Then by the time you get yet another 5-6 stacks she flies off. Unless you are vanish-immuning Blistering Cold or have mis-timed your killing spree, you rarely have to stop DPSing in order to get the stacks to fall off.

And in P3 you drop your stacks at the same time you drop your Mystic Buffet stacks, by attacking the person who is Tombed.

[Spoogles]

Last time I checked it was inferior to gem agi

Last time I HEARD (not 110% on this) that Rawr is SHIT!!!

[Pastor]

Are you asking a question or just posting false information?

It's a 20% chance per attack to add a stack of Chilled to the Bone, you don't get one with every single attack unless you're extremely unlucky.

Unless you're doing hard mode and/or are mutilate, you typically don't have to worry about stopping your DPS to let the debuff fall off. You can cloak the first stack around 5-6 and by the time you get another 3-4 stack she casts Blistering Cold and unless you are vanish-immuning it, your stacks will fall off before you have to run back in. Then by the time you get yet another 5-6 stacks she flies off. Unless you are vanish-immuning Blistering Cold or have mis-timed your killing spree, you rarely have to stop DPSing in order to get the stacks to fall off.

We will check it out more on Monday, maybe it was just bad luck.

[Pastor]

Last time I checked it was inferior to gem agi

Last time I HEARD (not 110% on this) that Rawr is SHIT!!!

I didn't just use Rawr, I used Simcraft as well.

[Sesshou]

Im assuming you are combat, and I'm also assuming your gear is rather bad based on what you said in your OP. The first assumption is based on the fact that you said you previously had arp gems which means either you are combat or lack any understanding of how rogue dps works; the second is based on the fact that you were told to gem agi.

The extra haste you have by using haste gems shouldn't be anywhere near enough to have a noticeable effect on getting stacks of the sindragosa debuff.

If you were told to gem agi as combat either one of two things is happening:
1.) The program you are using sucks. Rawr has known problems for rogues, Simcraft I don't believe is a rogue based simsheet either. Get Aldriana's sheet from EJ.

2.) Your gear is bad. If you can not get a high enough total armor pen with gems and gear then it will not come out ahead, this is especially true with rupture critting since agi helps rupture damage and arp doesn't. Also if you had good gear, you would be crit capping yourself by socketing agi (though if you need to meet socket color for a yellow an agi/hit or agi/haste might be best even with good gear).

In conclusion, gems won't really effect Sindragosa. Get Aldriana's spreadsheet and do what it says.

[Pastor]

I should have mentioned our specs.

both combat.

myself, the new belt is ungemmed and unbuckled untill I decide if I am going out of the agility spec
http://www.wow-heroes.com/index.php?...me=lockbreaker

The other rouge who just changed out of agility today.
http://www.wow-heroes.com/index.php?...name=Morpheous

I am of course open to suggestions as my rouge is only about a month and a half old.

[Destram]

Uhhh why is that 2nd rogue using a black bruise with heartpeirce as an offhand?

Also like someone said, most of your information is false, you can get over 5 stacks, usually on heroic 25 i let my stacks go up to 9 then cloak it off, if cloak is on cooldown i let it get to 5 or 6 then stop attacking, and this is heroic 25 so on normal you can let it go even higher.

[Soaks]

From looking at your gear, it became clear to me, that the reason rawr / simcraft have you at better dps with agi gemming is because you are low on arp from gear.

I suspect that when you have enough arp from gear to hit arp cap with gemming arp, rawr and simcraft will change whats best for you.

[Pastor]

thanks for the imput guys.

Black bruise is because of his close quarters spec IIRC

I just ran the spreadsheet for Lockbreaker

Is there a way to post it here?

With out the belt gemmed, it shows EP values of Agility 1.9871 slightly ahead of Armor pen at 1.9841
however.....it suggests use of Attack Power gems and 4 attack power / hit combo gems

[Destram]

thanks for the imput guys.

Black bruise is because of his close quarters spec IIRC

I just ran the spreadsheet for Lockbreaker

Is there a way to post it here?

With out the belt gemmed, it shows EP values of Agility 1.9871 slightly ahead of Armor pen at 1.9841
however.....it suggests use of Attack Power gems and 4 attack power / hit combo gems

Black bruise isn't the problem, i was meaning why is he using a 1.8 speed dagger in his offhand? >_>

[Pastor]

Black bruise isn't the problem, i was meaning why is he using a 1.8 speed dagger in his offhand? >_>

just asked, both daggers he has from icc are both 1.8

[Pastor]

ok, talking with the other rogue, going to 6 stacks will work for sure....it was the 4-5 stack stops that were the issue

[Bluejohnnyd]

If both his ICC daggers are 1.8 speed, he should use a TOC dagger. Or get a fast one from the ICC 5-mans. A 1.8 in either hand as combat is...just...no. Just no.

Also, if you don't want to use a proper spreadsheet, use iDPS. Same code mostly as Aldriana's spreadsheet, so it's about as close to the gold standard of simming as you can get without opening excel. Also, it has an armory import feature that makes it really easy to use. Rawr has been broken for rogues for about as long as the rogue module has existed, and as for Simcraft, I wouldn't trust anything that corroborates Rawr.

http://code.google.com/p/idps/

[Annoying]

The spreadsheet recommends AP because it's EP is always 1, and you get twice as much ap from a gem. Thus @ 1.9871 EP per agi, a 20 agi gem is worth 39.742 EP, and a 40 ap gem is worth 40EP.

[Pastor]

The spreadsheet recommends AP because it's EP is always 1, and you get twice as much ap from a gem. Thus @ 1.9871 EP per agi, a 20 agi gem is worth 39.742 EP, and a 40 ap gem is worth 40EP.

is the crit what drives up the ep of agility?

btw, I gemmed the belt with agil and agil/haste and it changed the EP to 1.9865 agil and 1.9992 armor pen

[Bluejohnnyd]

As you gain stats, it affects the weight of other stats. Like, in your example, when the crit and haste go up (from the new belt gems), it causes the value of arpen to rise in comparison: you are now hitting the target faster with more chance to crit, so having more arpen while you're doing that is more valuable. It's common, for example, to see muti rogues striving for a balance between haste and AP, as they float in pretty close proximity to one another (hitting faster means that it's more beneficial to hit harder, and vice versa).

[Deleted]

i bake a chocolate cake for a healer and specifically poke him to watch me carefully. this way i go to 9-12 stacks, cloak, sindy pulls in, we run out, jump back in, go to 5-7 again. rinse and repeat.

this works, and if your on 12 stacks, your getting like 15k dmg, which is the right time to cloak :P Ive killed her on 25/10/10hm with this tactic, dunno if it works in 25hm.

[Pastor]

Thanks again.

[Leios the Worstcase]

For 25 man Sindra I am playing Mutilate with an atack speed of something around 0.7 with my main Hand and I still was able to nuke pretty much the whole time.

I use the Quick Stacking of the debuff to my advantage. Since the debuff Stacks so absurdly fast you will mostly get a aditional stack before the Dot even ticks. Most of the Time I just keep nuking till 7-8 Stacks and then Cloak. At this point the debuff Stacks again to about 3-4, then she dose Blistering Cold and my debuff resets on it's own.

Then I nuke till she lifts of, at this point I have about 4-5 Stacks which can easily be healed during Air Phase.

In P3 ofcourse you are screwed. I mostly just Kill the ice Blocks and hit the boss every now and then when there are no ice Blocks up or I see that it is a good opurtunuity.

Hope this helps your Rogues