RL and Loot

[Astray]

Hypocrisy! \o/

I wonder how many of the hunters who say "the hunter should have gotten the sword because its an upgrade for him!" would accept it if, for example, a warrior won a great range weapon for a little stats bonus.

My guess, almost none of them.

You get the item = fine
same situation the other way
someone else gets the item = biggest catastrophe ever!

Think about it. The best gun in the game drops. Rogue "oh that has +5 agility compared to mine /rnd 100"~ would that be okey for you? ^^


PS: @OP: right decision, but i thought that was common sense

[krasgoth]

Words

When you're running a pug, you state the rules at the beginning. Either it's free roll, or it's priority. It should never have gotten to the point where the hunter was rolling on an item he wouldn't be allowed to take, even if he won the roll. That's just unclear loot rules, and since you weren't asking for people to say "Yes dude, you did the right thing" (Unless of course, that was your intent! ) I'm going to say, once again, that it was your fault for not clarifying it.

Sorry, but it was. Your loot system is absolute, especially when you're pugging people into a guild run, you either run with DKP, with suicide kings, with a random roll, or whatever your system is, but it has to be clear at the start. If you were prioritizing loot based on random criteria (A staff with hit and spirit drops, healers aren't allowed to roll on it, a polearm with agility drops, only hunters are allowed to roll on it, agility fists drop, only rogues can roll, etc) then everyone should be aware your criteria is random and shifting, and be aware if that bothers them (Like said hunter) to drop out of the raid before it starts.

Not to play devil's advocate, but it was handled the wrong way

You live with your loot rules, not bend them randomly whenever it suits someone else. My guess is the hunter was a pug and the DK was a guildie, which would've been the reason for the kafuffle more than the borked roll in the first place.

You've said a couple of things, one is that it's MS > OS based on performance, and then that it's priority based. You didn't follow EITHER of your own rules, and to top it off, you handed it to someone who didn't win the roll for the item, heh. Whether it's hunter loot or shaman loot or whatever loot, if you told people to roll for it, honour their rolls, especially if it's a class that can use the item for an actual upgrade.

[evan_s]

You live with your loot rules, not bend them randomly whenever it suits someone else. My guess is the hunter was a pug and the DK was a guildie, which would've been the reason for the kafuffle more than the borked roll in the first place.

You've said a couple of things, one is that it's MS > OS based on performance, and then that it's priority based. You didn't follow EITHER of your own rules, and to top it off, you handed it to someone who didn't win the roll for the item, heh. Whether it's hunter loot or shaman loot or whatever loot, if you told people to roll for it, honour their rolls, especially if it's a class that can use the item for an actual upgrade.

Yeah it probably wasn't specifically stated but MS > OS always included an assumption on what is considered MS. Just because you can equipe it and it is better than what you are currently using in that slot doesn't mean you should be rolling on it for your MS. Shaman/paly's don't get roll on rings, necks etc with spirit on em. Yes, I know you are a caster and it may have better stats than what you are wearing but that spirit is completely wasted and the item isn't itemized for you. Same thing with MP5. That's a healer piece. No dps class wants Mp5 on their gear. Same thing for +hit, it's an automatic DPS piece, not healer. The list goes on. Defense is for tanking, block is for pally/warrior not dk. Along with all of those assumptions, I've always seen ranged weapons go to hunters, melee weapons go to melees.

Yes, a frost dk would be better off with a nice +str 1 handed sword but since there are none they have to use +agility ones. Guess what? This is the only slow 1 handed weapon a Dual Wielding Frost DK can use in 25 man ICC before getting the Lich king down. The other slow 1hded drops are fist weapons that DK's can't use.

http://www.wowhead.com/items=2?filte...4812:1;crv=0:2

[Myrrar]

1st off rolling is the best system for pugs unless you get the same ones week after week. We have people that run weekly dkp for their pugs and works for them.

About the weapon. You are running a pug. It's not your place to say "well, the warrior(whatever) get's more benefit". If it was an ele shaman rolling on a spirit MH that's one thing. If it's a rogue or warrior rolling on a bow when there are hunters that needs that's also one thing.

But hunters get as much out of their weapons as any caster does. When 1 handers drop in your guild runs do you not let hunters use? If so you probably won't have many hunters around. It's like saying you won't let them roll on a 2hander because an arms warrior may need or a staff because your druid gets more out of it. It's a pug.... Do you tell your casters they can't roll on non hit gear too?

Also, saying a 1hander is a wasted slot for a hunter and comparing it to a pally with spirit doesn't work. If it had the stats he needed it was a MS up for him, end of story.

[Skatoulinos]

I agree with OP.

Because it is a PUG it doesnt mean he should give the weapon to the retarded hunter who is greedy and rolls for a 40 dps upgrade while the melee could get a lot more.

[LeperHerring]

About the weapon. You are running a pug. It's not your place to say "well, the warrior(whatever) get's more benefit".

If he's the master looter and a retarded hunter rolls on a melee weapon over a melee class, then of course it's his place to set it straight.

But hunters get as much out of their weapons as any caster does. When 1 handers drop in your guild runs do you not let hunters use? If so you probably won't have many hunters around.

Our hunters would NEVER roll on a 1 hander over a rogue or frost DK, EVER. But then again, they are actually very good hunters who know that the main source of damage for melee classes is the weapon DPS and that 1 handers are an order or magnitude bigger upgrades for melee classes than for hunters. They also know that those weapons will drop again after the melee have gotten theirs...

[Djomka]

So basically 1-handed weapons are off the table because melee need them and 2-handed weapons are off the table because feral druids need them? Melee and feral druids get the full benefit of 1-handed and 2-handed weapons and hunters use them as stat sticks. I have a hunter, I've yet to roll on the 1-handed weapon from ICC 10 or ICC 25, waiting for a polearm to drop, but the mentality is the same. If hunters use 1-handed weapons and stat sticks, then ferals get the most benefit from 2-handed weapons aswell and we use them as stat sticks. So hunters actually have no options on their weapons, besides ranged ones :P

[LeperHerring]

So basically 1-handed weapons are off the table because melee need them and 2-handed weapons are off the table because feral druids need them?

They're not off the table, you just don't get to roll against classes that get hugely more benefit from them. They will drop again and eventually you'll get them.

[Deleted]

Melee weapons are the exact same for feral druids as other melee. Feral attack power fills the role of weapon dps in that case.

Upgrading from a 264 weapon to 277 a hunter might gain:
+13 agility
+28 attack power
+14 crit rating
+6 haste
+1 socket

A feral druid would gain:
+13 agility
+ 550 attack power
+14 crit rating
+6 haste
+1 socket

A ranged weapon is a good upgrade for a melee, and an excellent one for a hunter. A melee weapon is a nice upgrade for a hunter, and an excellent upgrade for a melee. A melee might gain 60dps from a 13 ilvl ranged weapon upgrade, while a hunter might gain 250-300 dps. A hunter might gain 100dps from a melee weapon upgrade, while a melee would gain 500-600 dps or more. You can't have everything. If you want priority on ranged weapons over melee, you can't expect to roll on melee weapons against melee.

[Azyoulike]

I'm curious because the OP didn't say whether the hunter or DK were members, but I'm guessing that the hunter wasn't at least.

Anyway - loot priority beyond the very rudimentary is kinda unfair in pugs. Althor's Abacus is Healing, Nibelung is dps etc - these are pretty clear - but when you deny melee weapons to hunters on a MS roll in what is 50% a pug raid - you are essentially saying that hunters will never get to upgrade their weapons in your raid.

Now that is fair if you announce it in advance, but if you spring it on people at the final boss of the night then yes, you're being a bad RLer.

Personally I would say that the fairest system to use in a raid such as yours with mixed regulars/pugs would be GDKP - at least it would be clearer.

[LeperHerring]

you are essentially saying that hunters will never get to upgrade their weapons in your raid.

Yeah, just like nobody ever gets offspec gear because mainspec has priority... oh wait...

What this means is simply that melee have priority on melee weapons just like hunters have priority on ranged weapons. This is something that should be obvious to every half decent hunter and melee.

[Crusoe]

You live with your loot rules, not bend them randomly whenever it suits someone else. My guess is the hunter was a pug and the DK was a guildie, which would've been the reason for the kafuffle more than the borked roll in the first place.

You've said a couple of things, one is that it's MS > OS based on performance, and then that it's priority based. You didn't follow EITHER of your own rules, and to top it off, you handed it to someone who didn't win the roll for the item, heh. Whether it's hunter loot or shaman loot or whatever loot, if you told people to roll for it, honour their rolls, especially if it's a class that can use the item for an actual upgrade.

Yeah, it sounds like OP screwed the pug and made a guildie happy and is now coming here to be comforted.

I'm curious because the OP didn't say whether the hunter or DK were members, but I'm guessing that the hunter wasn't at least.

Personally I would say that the fairest system to use in a raid such as yours with mixed regulars/pugs would be GDKP - at least it would be clearer.

When I saw that half your raid was a pug, I would have to say that the best loot system for your set up is a GDKP loot system. Your guild members will be going often enough that they will be able to get their gear when they want. The other 1/2 of your raid are going to be rotated in from week to week. If an item drops and they want it, they will be compeled to pay top dollar for it, because they don't know when the next time they will be raiding, and if that item will drop again.

With a GDKP system, you will find your guild members to win the items they want on their own time table, and they will also become richer.

I am not a hunter, I am a priest. I have paladins, shamans, druids, mages, warlocks, and other priests to compete for gear on. Sometimes BiS for another class isn't the armor type you would think. After being hit capped, dps classes start looking for gear with SP/Haste/Crit stats. For this and other situations like the OP it is hard to say what is MS. That is just one of many reasons why I like GDKP loot systems. There is no MS>OS.

If you want it for MS, or OS, or RP or just to DE in from of the hunter's face you can... you just have to pay for it.

Before people complain about "paying for gear" remember people do that all the time at the AH. Also, think of it as "tipping" your those who raided with you, and helped you get that item. If that DK, you helped out, left transfered and faction changed out of your guild - would you be mad? Probably, you hurt a hunter's feelings to aid someone who screwed you over. In a GDKP system, all "karma points" are distributed at the end of the run.

I could go on and on about how great GDKP runs are, but I will end on this point. No matter what drops, everyone wins. Even if the only thing that drops is healing plate gear - from every boss. In any other loot system, only paladins would benifit. In a GDKP loot system, everyone gets something. Players know that if they kill a boss, they will be better off, even if that boss's loot table doesn't have anything they want.

[Netherwolf]

I'm curious because the OP didn't say whether the hunter or DK were members, but I'm guessing that the hunter wasn't at least.

Anyway - loot priority beyond the very rudimentary is kinda unfair in pugs. Althor's Abacus is Healing, Nibelung is dps etc - these are pretty clear - but when you deny melee weapons to hunters on a MS roll in what is 50% a pug raid - you are essentially saying that hunters will never get to upgrade their weapons in your raid.

Now that is fair if you announce it in advance, but if you spring it on people at the final boss of the night then yes, you're being a bad RLer.

Personally I would say that the fairest system to use in a raid such as yours with mixed regulars/pugs would be GDKP - at least it would be clearer.

I think you missed the part in the thread where he said that it was a 1H weapon and that he considered one-handers to be "OS" for hunters. I thereby assume that all the hunters in his guild (and pugs) to have the same prio on 2H weapons as feral druids and arms warriors and what not.

[TroyBlade]

The OP states his loot rules are based on performance and then says nothing at all about the performance of the hunter in question.

He gave loot to his guild mate and feels guilty enough about it to come here and look for some support.

He probably did the right thing, for all the wrong reasons.

[Morgansbror]

Since im a hunter i thought ill add my view. 1H 2H should allways be melee prio over Hunters Even in guildruns. i very highly doubt that a stat stick is a higher upgrade then a ranged for a hunter since just the "dps" number on the said bow is like 8dps per point.

The only think i can think of is if it was the same dps on the bow/gun

I feel ashamed to be a hunter when hunters go on like this when losing a roll on a statstick.

I do the same thing when rolling on leather (yes some of the leather stuff are BiS for hunters) but Rogue/druid prio on leather. when in guildruns i Allways ask if anyone of the rogues or druids need the item before rolling/bidding for it.

And the next time (probobly tonight) i make a icc25 i will state that i want 4 bosses and its MS/OS rolls and Deathbringers Will will be prio rolled for Armorpen using classes such as warriors Dks (blood) Hunters (MM) Druids and to some extent Rogues. the bullshit with enhancement shamans rolling on it needs to stop.

Not Everything is Hunter loot just most of it

[Twoflower]

If you /Roll, you give it to the one who rolled highest.

If you wanna do ANY other system, or limit who can roll on what, or make some "common sence" rules, you have to state it BEFORE the run. Otherwise it is just a tyranny by the loot master.

To repeat myself : If you let everybody roll on loot, you HAVE TO GIVE IT to the one who wins the roll. NO WAY EVER you can change the loot system after you see who won the roll.



edit : all that talk about who it would be best for is totaly beside the point. The loot system was not "give it to the guy who can use it most". The loot system was rolling. Once you have a loot system, you gotta stick with it.

Edit 2 : http://eu.blizzard.com/support/artic...rticleId=43810

"Okay, so scamming is against the rules…what exactly is a scam?

In terms of loot, making and then breaking a clear in-game agreement on the way loot will be distributed by a Master Looter can be considered a scam. Unfortunately, some players will make loot agreements they have no intention of keeping to get players to join a dungeon or raid group. In these situations, players who disregard the original agreement and then take (or give away) loot in a different way are potentially violating our Scam Policy. If you believe you have been scammed, please contact In-Game Support."

I would report you...

[Shamburger]

I run a GDKP run with my alt on weekends, everyone goes home happy.

http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t77416-g...d_your_server/

[LeperHerring]

IIf you wanna do ANY other system, or limit who can roll on what, or make some "common sence" rules, you have to state it BEFORE the run. Otherwise it is just a tyranny by the loot master.

To repeat myself : If you let everybody roll on loot, you HAVE TO GIVE IT to the one who wins the roll. NO WAY EVER you can change the loot system after you see who won the roll.

The loot system was master looter. Ultimately the master looter decides how the loot is distributed, if you don't like that you can join a pug that does group loot. Just because he says "/roll, MS > OS" doesn't mean he can't ignore rolls by retarded hunters who have no common sense. I seriously doubt any GM would reverse that decision.

When I lead pugs I always state the rules as "/roll, MS > OS, I reserve the right to ignore any /roll - if you suck you won't get loot". It has worked wonderfully, loot whores and people who suck will leave before the run even starts.

[LeperHerring]

I run a GDKP run with my alt on weekends, everyone goes home happy.

Especially the gold sellers.

[Shamburger]

Especially the gold sellers.

If a gold seller wants to level a toon to 80 and put gold in my pocket who and I to tell him no?