RL and Loot

[IngoDent]

If you are the RL/ML, state the loot rules clearly, ie. melee have prio over hunters on melee weapons, and hunters on ranged weapons over melee, and then, if you desire, have a item class prio (cloth to clothies, leather for leatherusers, mail for mailers and plate for platers), personally, I run with "Items will be rolled for, but I can at ANY POINT deny you loot based on your performance. If you are underperforming by miles, I might demand a reroll, or give that item to someone more deserving", it will not be ninja'ing, and people can't bitch if they don't get an item they rolled for, if they suck, they shouldn't be rewarded, IMO, and I'm not talking about people in avg. 232 items not doing 10k DPS, if you are a DPS decked out in full 264 gear, I am expecting more than 5k DPS on a boss, but of course, everything is relative.

[LeperHerring]

If a gold seller wants to level a toon to 80 and put gold in my pocket who and I to tell him no?

Er, no. Where do you think the thousands of gold that all the scrubs paid for their items came from?

[Twoflower]

The loot system was master looter. Ultimately the master looter decides how the loot is distributed, if you don't like that you can join a pug that does group loot. Just because he says "/roll, MS > OS" doesn't mean he can't ignore rolls by retarded hunters who have no common sense. I seriously doubt any GM would reverse that decision.

Yes, it means exactly that. You stated loot rules, people roll, then you change the loot rules. NOT GONNA HAPPEN !

That's exactly the kind of self righteous behaviour by stupid elitist know-it-all's that think they know better than everybody else that makes me wanna puke. That's exactly the reason why there are rules explained in the link i gave above. By blizzard themselfs. Because obviously you lack the common sence that you expect from others. That's exactly why i insist on explaining loot rules before we start a instance. And that's exactly why i would write 100 tickets just to show you that no, you can not do as you please. it is a team game. Behave like you would at least try to understand what the words "team" or "playing together" mean.

[Crusoe]

Er, no. Where do you think the thousands of gold that all the scrubs paid for their items came from?

The same place everyone's gold comes from - the AH. Some people even use addons and macros to make the gold making go faster. Just because you fail at making imaginary money, don't assume nobody else can either.

[grimkiller]

"Welcome to the PuNk In DrUbLiK 25 ICC raid. Please be prepared with flasks/food/pots. We expect everyone, both guildies and PUGs alike, to perform to a baseline standard acceptable for this level raid. If you fail to perform to an acceptable level, you will be asked to leave or get booted. Looting will be distributed based on MS > OS. MS is defined your current role for the specific encounter in this raid, max armor type (all classes) and main source of damage (DPS classes). I reserve the right to overrule any and all rolls based on this criteria. If there is a specific item drop you wish to roll on that does not fit the mentioned criteria, or if you have any questions regarding performance, whisper me now or forever hold your peace. Thank you and let's have some fun!"

This is my new macro (well, macros anyway).
I'm hoping this will end the confusion and allow us to have nice, smooth fun runs.

[Myrrar]

If he's the master looter and a retarded hunter rolls on a melee weapon over a melee class, then of course it's his place to set it straight.

Our hunters would NEVER roll on a 1 hander over a rogue or frost DK, EVER. But then again, they are actually very good hunters who know that the main source of damage for melee classes is the weapon DPS and that 1 handers are an order or magnitude bigger upgrades for melee classes than for hunters. They also know that those weapons will drop again after the melee have gotten theirs...

Sure, if I'm master looter I can ninja all the gear I want to myself too. If it's a pug it is not your choice what gear is best for whom unless it is obvious. In a guild run my hunters would never roll on a 1h over a melee. In a pug, they sure as hell will.

A pug is there to go to once and not go to again. You can't say "well, it will drop again". It's not a guild run, it may not. Unless you want to be known as a terrible raid leader, which if I went on my alt I would have never gone back, you follow your loot rules and saying a 1h for a hunter is offspec is incorrect.

Not going to throw my raid e-peen out there but I assure you, your hunters are not as good as mine =]

[LeperHerring]

Sure, if I'm master looter I can ninja all the gear I want to myself too. If it's a pug it is not your choice what gear is best for whom unless it is obvious. In a guild run my hunters would never roll on a 1h over a melee. In a pug, they sure as hell will.

He didn't ninja anything. He simply followed the very simple "melee has priority on melee weapons and hunters have priority on ranged weapons" rule that every half decent player in this game knows. And if the hunters in your guild are pugging, then I'm guessing it ain't a very good guild in the first place.

Unless you want to be known as a terrible raid leader, which if I went on my alt I would have never gone back, you follow your loot rules and saying a 1h for a hunter is offspec is incorrect.

If you roll on a hunter for a melee weapon over melee class, I wouldn't trust you to know wtf you're doing anyway.

Not going to throw my raid e-peen out there but I assure you, your hunters are not as good as mine =]

Good thing you don't, since you can't win in that game. Hunters in my guild are good enough to clear all the content in this game, so they're good enough for me.

[Azoth]

From checking through wowhead, there looks to be ~22 agility based 1H/2H weapons that drop in ICC 10 / 25. Compare that to a total of (4) 1H melee weapons with stats usable by DW Frost DK. Well 5 if you consider the one from Gunship 10man HC.

Just saying that it's MUCH harder for a Frost DK to find weapon upgrades than a hunter, rogue or even an Enh shammy for that matter.

As with any PuG loot rules, as long as they are explained at the beginning of the run then there shouldn't be as much bitching during the run.

[Myrrar]

He didn't ninja anything. He simply followed the very simple "melee has priority on melee weapons and hunters have priority on ranged weapons" rule that every half decent player in this game knows. And if the hunters in your guild are pugging, then I'm guessing it ain't a very good guild in the first place.

If you roll on a hunter for a melee weapon over melee class, I wouldn't trust you to know wtf you're doing anyway.

Good thing you don't, since you can't win in that game. Hunters in my guild are good enough to clear all the content in this game, so they're good enough for me.

Unless you have killed LK25HM you are exactly where I am. I don't throw my raiding experience around a lot since most know that's like talking about your gearscore. My guild could have carried me through all the content I've done. You trying to talk about your hunters in your guild on a topic about pugs saying they are smart enough to do this is pointless.

I never said my hunters pug. I never even said we pug on alts. A lot of people pug on their 2nd alts though. And unless you say, "ranged won't be rolling on 1handers" it's not your place to tell someone they can't take a piece of gear. It's a pug. Would I roll on it if I was a tard? If it was a pug, I didn't care about the other people, and it was an upgrade, yeah, I would. That's the point of pugs, I wouldn't care if something was better for some random bad having to pug ICC.

If you are going to go out of your way to make a pug you should be smart enough to make sure you cover all rules and make sure everyone knows them so you don't make yourself look like an idiot.

[khalpone]

OP, you did the right thing. The only issue was expectations. Here's my Pug Loot Rules Macro

/r Loot Rules. MS > OS. Normal Armor Class restrictions (cloth is for clothies MS, roll OS Shaman/Driud, etc)
/r Mp5 MS Heal. +hit MS DPS
/r Weapons, don't be a tool. If you need an explaination on any item, let me know now.
/r If you want a different MS from the role you are in now, here's your chance to tell me. No exceptions after we pull.
/r BoEs - need to see you equip immediately after winning

It's a little bit of a wall of txt, but it makes life easy.

[Twoflower]

Hunters rolling on melee weapons is the same as melees rolling on ranged weapons. They both only use it as stat stick. Yet they still need something to fill that stat stick slot, so none has preferance over the other.

If it were a guild run, you would see who benefits most from the upgrade. But since it is a PuG, everyone has the same right on everything. For all we know, that Bow could be the only item that Rogue is in the instance for, and he needs nothing else. Saying that he can not roll on it because you have some sort of imaginary ideal loot distribution is just arrogance.

[Gracin]

Honestly OP, you made the right decision. I played a hunter throughout BC and never would have taken a melee weapon over a melee, and I was shown the same courtesy from the melee when it came to ranged weapons. My current main is or rather was DW Frost DK(finished Shadow's Edge to try out unholy), and I can honestly say I would have been furious had the weapon been given to the hunter. That weapon is BiS until LK25 and HMs for Dw Dk's. It has been stated several times that a melee weapon is a far larger dps increase for a melee than just being a stat stick for a hunter. As far as the agi 2h's go, imho its between Feral Druids and Hunters...but once again I state that it IS a larger upgrade for the feral over the hunter.

Also, to all those saying the OP is just trying to get some justification over giving the BVB to a guildy, you should prob look at his Armory. I found 1 DW Frost Dk, who was in crappy tank gear(no offense), with two screwed up Frost specs, using a Black Icicle and a Falri's Wrist-Chopper.

[gaymer77]

2h Weapons: Melee priority, hunters secondary.

Uh, no. The only classes that can use agi staves are feral druids, warriors, and hunter. The classes that can use agi polearms are feral druids, hunters, DKs, warriors, and ret pallies. The only classes that can use agi 2h swords are hunters, ret pallies, DKs, and warriors. The classes that can use 2h agi axes are hunters, shaman, warriors, pallies, and DKs. The classes that can use 2h agi maces are feral druids, warriors, DKs, shaman, and ret pallies. So in your example a hunter should lose out on each of those agi weapons to a melee because melee have priority over hunters. What you fail to grasp is that the increase of a hunter's dmg on their "stat stick melee weapon" will give them a lot more increase than a ranged weapon's stats. Ranged weapons (wands, bows, xbows, throwing weapons, and guns) have the lowest stat allocation in the game when compared to the increase in say chest pieces in one tier bracket to another tier bracket. Weapons have the largest increase in stats. If you look at any of those ranged weapons you will see that from a 10 man to a 25 man version you'll only gain under 5 stats and the AP/SP gains are around the same too. Compare http://www.wowhead.com/item=51802 10 man normal drop to http://www.wowhead.com/item=49981 and see how much of an increase in stats you gain from going to a 258 xbow to a 271 xbow that drops off the same boss (base dps increase in the weapon is a little over 30 dps). Now compare http://www.wowhead.com/item=51797 ilvl 258 staff (feral or hunter staff) to http://www.wowhead.com/item=50425 where you have an increase of over 20 agi, 30 stam, 16 AP, 25 ARP, 2 reds instead of red/yellow with the same bonus, and over 400 feral AP for those feral druids (and 30 dps on the melee dps number). Notice the huge increase of stats in a WEAPON compared to what a ranged weapon gives? Just because its a "stat stick" for a hunter doesn't mean its not a drastic increase in their overall dmg too compared to what a melee would get out of it. The opposite is true for a melee (rogue/warrior) who needs a ranged weapon over a hunter. Because of the smaller scaling increase in ranged weapon stats that melee won't see as high of an increase in dmg from their ranged stat stick as a hunter would get from their melee stat stick.

Healers in 232 hit cloth... Wut? change to healing gear or /kick

You just showed more proof on why you're an idiot. Just because a healer has gear with hit on it doesn't mean that its necessarily a bad piece of gear for them based on the OTHER STATS on the item. It could be that it was an item with spirit & hit & haste that replaced a piece with mp5 and crit on it but the desired stat for that healer is haste & spirit (I can think of 2 class specs that want those exact stats...resto druids and holy priests). It could have also been that they had an ilvl 219 piece on and the raw spellpower upgrade on that 232 hit cloth was too much to pass up and that is why they wear it. Again, you're an idiot if you think that a healer wearing hit gear is not wearing gear they can heal in (btw I've got over 200 hit in my HEALING GEAR since a lot of the stats that are desired by my disc spec are also stats that are desired for my main shadow spec).

"Welcome to the PuNk In DrUbLiK 25 ICC raid. Please be prepared with flasks/food/pots. We expect everyone, both guildies and PUGs alike, to perform to a baseline standard acceptable for this level raid. If you fail to perform to an acceptable level, you will be asked to leave or get booted. Looting will be distributed based on MS > OS. MS is defined your current role for the specific encounter in this raid, max armor type (all classes) and main source of damage (DPS classes). I reserve the right to overrule any and all rolls based on this criteria. If there is a specific item drop you wish to roll on that does not fit the mentioned criteria, or if you have any questions regarding performance, whisper me now or forever hold your peace. Thank you and let's have some fun!"

Your new macro is going to make people not interested in being in your pug & will make the time it takes to fill your pug even longer. What that macro says is "you're only allowed to roll on your highest armor type based on what role you are for that 1 fight and I can overrule you even being allowed to roll for something as I see fit without you being able to say anything since I put this raid together & I know what's best for you more than you do". There will always be the case (at least until Cata comes out but even then it still might be the same issue it was pre-BC, during BC, and how it is now) where plate gets better stats from mail/leather, mail gets better stats from leather/cloth, and leather gets better stats from cloth. Not to mention you are stating yourself that you have the final decision in who YOU feels should get an item in a pug. Personally I would never join a "pug" that has a loot council. I don't know you & I don't trust you so I'm not going to trust your decision on what is best for me over someone else. I'm there to get gear for myself with gear that is an upgrade for me. I don't get a rat's ass if its a bigger upgrade for someone else because I don't care about that other person I probably will never see again. I'm there to make my character better than it was when I walked in the dungeon gates and will take whatever item drops that does exactly that. Does that mean that my mage will roll on an item with mp5 on it? Not unless no healer needed it. I would take it for main spec if no healer in that raid needed it for their main spec but I sure as hell would bitch if it was given to a dmg caster for their offspec healing gear as I would be using it for my main spec (you know pass on an item that is itemized for someone's main spec but nobody its itemized for needs but I would take). Its the same logic behind my shaman having a hit piece for his main spec healing gear. I rolled on it because I saw nobody rolled for it for main spec. It was an upgrade from what he had on if you took the hit off & I'd rather get it for my everyday use than some healer get it for their dps off spec.

[frozenslab]

http://www.wowhead.com/item=51802[/url] 10 man normal drop to http://www.wowhead.com/item=49981 and see how much of an increase in stats you gain from going to a 258 xbow to a 271 xbow that drops off the same boss (base dps increase in the weapon is a little over 30 dps). Now compare http://www.wowhead.com/item=51797 ilvl 258 staff (feral or hunter staff) to http://www.wowhead.com/item=50425 where you have an increase of over 20 agi, 30 stam, 16 AP, 25 ARP, 2 reds instead of red/yellow with the same bonus, and over 400 feral AP for those feral druids (and 30 dps on the melee dps number). Notice the huge increase of stats in a WEAPON compared to what a ranged weapon gives? Just because its a "stat stick" for a hunter doesn't mean its not a drastic increase in their overall dmg too compared to what a melee would get out of it. The opposite is true for a melee (rogue/warrior) who needs a ranged weapon over a hunter. Because of the smaller scaling increase in ranged weapon stats that melee won't see as high of an increase in dmg from their ranged stat stick as a hunter would get from their melee stat stick.

this argument again. So because ranged weapons are a smaller stat stick increase for warriors and rogues, but a large dps increase for a hunter, priority should be with the hunter, correct? Absolutely makes total sense to me. The ranged weapon is the hunter's primary source of damage and it'll be sitting on the back of a warrior or rogue, only providing passive stats, doing far less than in the hands of a hunter.

Okay, point two, hunters should also be given equal priority on a one handed agility weapon or a two handed as a melee class that uses it for it's primary source of damage, while it would be providing passive stats...on the back...of...a....hunter..?

So here's the answer again, for those hunters too stupid to get this, you cannot have it both ways. In order to be fair to other classes, you cannot take their primary upgrade for dealing damage to use as a passive stat bonus, while also claiming priority on ranged weapons. Pick one. Seriously, which hunter is giving up ranged weapons for their stat stick? Yeah. I thought so.

OP wins for reasonable decision making, hunters still unable to see logic. Film at 11.

[sledly]

back off, hunters need to raptor strike harder.

[gaymer77]

this argument again. So because ranged weapons are a smaller stat stick increase for warriors and rogues, but a large dps increase for a hunter, priority should be with the hunter, correct? Absolutely makes total sense to me. The ranged weapon is the hunter's primary source of damage and it'll be sitting on the back of a warrior or rogue, only providing passive stats, doing far less than in the hands of a hunter.

Okay, point two, hunters should also be given equal priority on a one handed agility weapon or a two handed as a melee class that uses it for it's primary source of damage, while it would be providing passive stats...on the back...of...a....hunter..?

So here's the answer again, for those hunters too stupid to get this, you cannot have it both ways. In order to be fair to other classes, you cannot take their primary upgrade for dealing damage to use as a passive stat bonus, while also claiming priority on ranged weapons. Pick one. Seriously, which hunter is giving up ranged weapons for their stat stick? Yeah. I thought so.

OP wins for reasonable decision making, hunters still unable to see logic. Film at 11.

Actually you completely missed my point. The fact that the small amounts of stat upgrades (including the damage on the weapon itself) a ranged weapon brings to a hunter as their main damage dealing weapon makes that the biggest arguement for them to have priority to a ranged weapon than any other class. The fact that the amount of upgrade melee weapons bring to the table should mean hunters have just as much priority on them that melee classes get.

[LeperHerring]

Actually you completely missed my point. The fact that the small amounts of stat upgrades (including the damage on the weapon itself) a ranged weapon brings to a hunter as their main damage dealing weapon makes that the biggest arguement for them to have priority to a ranged weapon than any other class. The fact that the amount of upgrade melee weapons bring to the table should mean hunters have just as much priority on them that melee classes get.

The mental acrobatics some people go through to justify loot whoring is just amazing... "You can't have my weapons because they're bigger upgrade for me! I must get your weapons because they're... a bigger upgrade for me... than my weapons are for you... or something..."

[Nootz]

Guys, guys. It's obvious what the roll was all about.

Ya gotta have that gearscore. Gearscore = win in WoW. I thought everyone knew this by now. =D

/end sarcasm

[prondawg]

With my hunter, i would always roll on a 1h that is a stats upgrade for me. That being said, i will always pass if there is a melee class rolling for it aswell and its an upgrade for them. The stats upgrade would be fine for me, but prioritizing a class that can actually utilize the dps on that wep should have prio imo.

[nalle]

Actually you completely missed my point. The fact that the small amounts of stat upgrades (including the damage on the weapon itself) a ranged weapon brings to a hunter as their main damage dealing weapon makes that the biggest arguement for them to have priority to a ranged weapon than any other class. The fact that the amount of upgrade melee weapons bring to the table should mean hunters have just as much priority on them that melee classes get.

All I can say is WOW...

Seriously do you even believe the crap you just wrote?

Main use of the DPS+stats on the weapon > statsticks.

There are other ways to work around this but it takes to much time and effort from both sides of the fence.