T2 Wrathful vs SE/Bryn (non-heroic)

[Arianwen]

So I have SE and Bryntroll... We arent even close to getting into heroic modes (7/12 only >_>) and I was wondering is T2 wrathful a DPS upgrade for me as I plan on 'buying' it if it is. I've checked RAWR and its saying its ~15 dps loss for me but RAWR is usually wrong and I've seen some posts saying T2 is ~200 dps upgrade over SE.

I'm mostly looking for a conclusive answer.

[Pieterman]

maybe.

[wvx]

Go SE+the mace from the prince council , or the PvP weapon , the BT is the most useless item for wars from my PoV , the speed sux and the proc isn't nearly powerfull enough to offset of loosing the crit/arp/hit from normal items .

[Sunstrikeisretlawl]

I'd imagine it would be regardless though, more ap, more crit than bryntroll ofc. It's way better than Shadow's Edge for sure since I think it's more crit, more if not the same ap, higher wep damage, and the same sockets.

[Makeleth]

Go SE+the mace from the prince council , or the PvP weapon , the BT is the most useless item for wars from my PoV , the speed sux and the proc isn't nearly powerfull enough to offset of loosing the crit/arp/hit from normal items .

this is a paladin forum man

[Thilia]

Loss of raw strength for a bigger top-end. The thing is, it has a lot of budget on resil so you're missing out on stats such as crit/ArP/haste etc.

Also, I'm glad these are the warrior forums~

[Arianwen]

Loss of raw strength for a bigger top-end. The thing is, it has a lot of budget on resil so you're missing out on stats such as crit/ArP/haste etc.

This is the part I'm mostly wondering about... The T2 has a lot of wasted budget on resil/stam but the higher top end/dps should make up for it?

Losing ~100 AP, 6.57% arp but gain .3% crit, 66-98 weapon damage, .1 swing speed.

[Sunstrikeisretlawl]

This is the part I'm mostly wondering about... The T2 has a lot of wasted budget on resil/stam but the higher top end/dps should make up for it?

Losing ~100 AP, 6.57% arp but gain .3% crit, 66-98 weapon damage, .1 swing speed.

I thought SE was 3.7 speed. I'd say it's a gain overall. Also losing arpen isn't really going to do much.

[Arianwen]

Yea SE is 3.7 and the T2 is 3.6... not sure why I considered that a gain aside SoV stacks getting on slightly faster.

[Cardolan]

The strength from Shadow's Edge results in 584 AP overall, compared to 435 AP total from the T2 Wrathful weapon. Taking into consideration the base DPS of each weapon, plus the DPS contribution from their relevant AP, and their respective swing speeds, we get top end figures of 1463 for Shadow's Edge and 1519 for the T2 Wrathful weapon (not taking other gear into account).

That's a difference of 56 top end damage, which together with 0.31% crit chance likely isn't worth the loss of 6.57% armor penetration. That's not even factoring in the benefits to non-weapon based attacks (Judgement, Seal of Vengeance ticks, Consecration, Exorcism) that the increased attack power from Shadow's Edge would have.

[pcx226]

The strength from Shadow's Edge results in 584 AP overall, compared to 435 AP total from the T2 Wrathful weapon. Taking into consideration the base DPS of each weapon, plus the DPS contribution from their relevant AP, and their respective swing speeds, we get top end figures of 1463 for Shadow's Edge and 1519 for the T2 Wrathful weapon (not taking other gear into account).

That's a difference of 56 top end damage, which together with 0.31% crit chance likely isn't worth the loss of 6.57% armor penetration. That's not even factoring in the benefits to non-weapon based attacks (Judgement, Seal of Vengeance ticks, Consecration, Exorcism) that the increased attack power from Shadow's Edge would have.

6.57% armorpen is still 6.57% more armorpen than i want....

[Cardolan]

6.57% armorpen is still 6.57% more armorpen than i want....

Regardless of whether or not you want it, it's still worth more than the alternative in the comparison that's being made.

[Copain]

Then you've got it configured wrong. Go try again.

Rawr can't always be spot on if you're trying to say that.

Can't simulate random chances (Crits for instance).

[Ascal]

Rawr can't always be spot on if you're trying to say that.

Can't simulate random chances (Crits for instance).

Well, we can't either?

[Bohedral]

Crits aren't random. They occur based on a percentage, meaning >>not<< random. And if you follow your reasoning, critrating shouldn't have any dps-value if you count with RAWR, which is obviously not true. RAWR simulates a fight (where you put the details in; ie. armor of the boss, lenght of fight, buffs, etc.) over and over and over again so the randomness of ur crit which could occur in some form of streak in a short fight gets overwritten by the "law of big numbers" when it's simulated so many times it comes closer and closer to your actual percentage chance to crit you have in your stats.

It's called math.

[Ascal]

Crits aren't random. They occur based on a percentage, meaning >>not<< random.

Wrong. Crits are random. With a 40% crit chance you can crit 30 of 30 attacks(you crit every attack -> 100% of your attacks critted) or 0 of 30 attacks(you never crit -> 0% of your attacks crit). Without the crit chance changing the outcome does change. Hence: random.

And if you follow your reasoning, critrating shouldn't have any dps-value if you count with RAWR, which is obviously not true. RAWR simulates a fight (where you put the details in; ie. armor of the boss, length of fight, buffs, etc.) over and over and over again so the randomness of ur crit which could occur in some form of streak in a short fight gets overwritten by the "law of big numbers" when it's simulated so many times it comes closer and closer to your actual percentage chance to crit you have in your stats.

True in principal. But i'm not sure how Rawr deals with crits. But as far as i know it just takes the exact numbers. Meaning with a 40% crit chance it would let 40% of your attacks crit. Makes the most sense to me. I don't see a reason for virtually rolling dice. And unless it'd roll stupidly often the outcome would never reach the true percentage(and even then it wouldn't always). Thus the real DPS would have a even greater chance to deviate from Rawrs calculation. Also Rawrs DPS number for a certain setup always remains constant further disproving your theory. No matter how many times Rawr would roll(stupid waste of time btw) eventually the DPS would change.

[Deleted]

WoW is an RPG. RPG's always have some sense of randomness in them. whether it is rolling a 20 sided or a 100 sided dice, you won't escape the fact that sometimes dice can favor, other times, they can't.

edit: what rawr does, is basically:

it calculates MAX high-end and MIN low-end damage for each attack.
it calculates the average damage each attack does.
it takes X % of those attacks (where X = your crit chance).
it multiplies those attacks with your crit multiplier (2.03 for paladins)
it takes 30% of that damage for RV.

the reason why paladins can rely on Rawr so well for calculations is because paladins have very little randomness (for example, we don't have many chance on hits like many other classes) and what we do have of randomness can be reduced to math. classes like warlocks, DK's and such would love a Rawr that functions that well.

[Myysticc]

Shadow's Edge is the best weapon pre-ICC25 Heroic. So if you have SE, use it - period. t2 Wrathful is better then non-Heroic Bryn though, so it is an upgrade to that but not a very large one.

Best advice would be to use SE if you don't see yourself doing Marrowgar HC / Blood Queen HC or even LK Normal anytime soon.

[Copain]

Crits aren't random. They occur based on a percentage, meaning >>not<< random.

I'm sorry, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Flip a quarter. It has two sides. 50% for each side.

Pretend it lands on Tails.

Is there a 100% Chance for it to be heads?


Please tell me you can answer this.

[Arianwen]

Is it worth 'trying out' for the low cost of 5k gold?