Hastestacking Retribution paladin.

[Nillo]

1) Not at all. The value of crit is not affected by fight length. The fact that fight lengths can be as you stated only proves my point even further. Fight length is definitely not a reliable limit, and crit is not affected by it. Haste is.

2) Have you been through valkyr phases on LK hard mode? It's a scenario where you need ~25k burst damage over 20 seconds. Go do that and then come back to me when you think haste is the more beneficial stat for the most key part of the hardest encounter in the game.

3) And what if you didn't have 1000 haste? You're pulling numbers out of your ass now.

4) Not really, no. The crit cap that "matters" is reaching 71.2%, because that's the point at which potential melee crits would not crit and rather be a glancing blow. This does not de-value the Judgment crit cap at all, since the melee-ability-crit-cap is 104.8%. Do you have over 60% crit unbuffed? I'm going to guess no. That crit rating is not attainable in a reasonable gear set.

1) Why do you keep insisting, that crit is more reliable than haste? Crit is totally unreliable , because it's RNG - haste is unreliable because it depends on the fight length, which is never set in stone, like your crit is never set in stone you might crit once within 20 seconds or crit 20 times in 20 seconds - totally unreliable.

2) And why would crit be better for that? You can't rely on crit rating giving you an additional crit at all. If you want reliable stats you ought to go for Str only, but you probably realise, that this is impossible and even stupid as well, because Str items simply don't cut it.

3) Am I ? I just took one of your time length examples, that was favoring haste in an extreme way - made some math around it and showed you, that even if 999 haste rating would be "wasted" the DPS gain of those 1000 haste would still have been higher than going for 1000 crit rating, because at that fight length, that was heavily favoring haste crit was in no way guaranteed to give you an extra crit. The point I was trying to make is, that you would need to sim ANY time length possible and take an average of haste vs crit to see which one is better and in the end both of them will be almost equal for ANY reasonable fight length you can imagine

4) I know you didn't even bother to read my sentence - but as you still insist: I said that you will never reach the crit cap, BUT you can still reach a point, where haste outscales crit without gaining the crit cap.

[Swampmoose]

Honestly not mocking you, you spent the last few replies commenting in what could be classed as a condecending manner, generally to the tune of 'i'm right, rawr says so everyone else is wrong'. While i do find your resistance to alternate ideas rather closed minded i didn't attempt to imply your not entitled to it. As you said this has gone a bit off topic and this thread is a bit dead now, still wanted to clear up that i wasn't taking a dig, in fact i think pretty much all my posts were constructive to some degree. Your Rawr says crits better, my Rawr says haste is, my only point was Rawr (in this case) is unreliable.

Rawr makes assumptions that you are going to be sitting directly behind a non moving object for a certain amount of time and that your rotation, attacks, whatever else, are spot on. When it tells you that crit is worth 1.50 and haste is worth 1.51 dps, it is save to assume that either direction you head, you won't ever see a noticeable difference between swapping an item with 50 haste for 50 crit and you might as well assume they are just about equal. It is simply a guide to help people make simple decisions and yet people treat it like it is end-all of wow.

Lets say that they ARE equal for arguments sake. You are doing heroic putricide and you are about to dps the gas cloud before it targets someone and you can't get right on it to make a melee swing, but you can judge from a few yards out and you land a big crit. Well in a "practical situation" not a rawr situation, crit surpassed haste on that fight because it was able to provide you with just a hair more dps because you couldn't get in range to utilize the haste on your gear, but you were able to utilize 100% of the crit.

It's also been calculated by these people that create rawr for us that haste is a much stronger stat when stacking your 5 stacks of vengeance. Now lets take the same putricide fight. You have to switch targets multiple times so you are doing a lot of stacking and haste has increased in value. Lets say you did enough stacking and didn't have any point where you couldn't NOT dps anything. Haste was a little stronger than crit that fight for you especially because of the increased value.

Now lets take reality. You are constantly switching and building stacks, you are tossing judgement crits from a range where you can't melee, you are cleaving adds and the boss with divine storm which changes values itself, you are running all over the place, you used your rotation wrong one or two times, you had to waste a gcd to toss a self heal on yourself. Haste and crit are back and forth the entire time. You will never be able to look at some program (rawr) and determine what stat is better for you when they are that stinkin close, not on this type of fight and not on any type of fight. Now when the difference is something like str vs spirit, you can safely trust the program to guide you in the right direction.

The "rawr said this" so it's right arguments get taken way too far sometimes. If you want to gem 10 haste 10 str somewhere, knock yourself out, you will never notice a difference.

[Badpaladin]

1) Why do you keep insisting, that crit is more reliable than haste? Crit is totally unreliable , because it's RNG - haste is unreliable because it depends on the fight length, which is never set in stone, like your crit is never set in stone you might crit once within 20 seconds or crit 20 times in 20 seconds - totally unreliable.

Because in the context of fight length, it's more reliable because it isn't affected by fight length. Haste is also unreliable because it suffers severely on target-swapping fights, and only jumps in value on multiple target fights if you get an extra swing in. And making statements like "could crit 20 times in 20 seconds or 0 times in 20 seconds" is silly. You're taking a completely extreme side to prove a point that doesn't hold water given the context.

2) And why would crit be better for that? You can't rely on crit rating giving you an additional crit at all. If you want reliable stats you ought to go for Str only, but you probably realise, that this is impossible and even stupid as well, because Str items simply don't cut it.

Because "Oh shit, I have defile!", or "oh shit, a healer is picked up so I have to heal Infest!", or even "Oh shit, somebody messed up defile a tick, I can't attack until this valkyr is out of it" all take the value of haste and flush it down the toilet. Chance to crit is better than no chance to swing(unless you magically found a way to chug a haste pot every valkyr phase). Lich King hard mode is the epitome of a fight where you can't reliable sit on something for more than 30 seconds after phase one is over with(even there, crit > haste because you don't use SoC on gouls unless you feel like pushing more than two shamblers and causing a wipe).

3) Am I ? I just took one of your time length examples, that was favoring haste in an extreme way - made some math around it and showed you, that even if 999 haste rating would be "wasted" the DPS gain of those 1000 haste would still have been higher than going for 1000 crit rating, because at that fight length, that was heavily favoring haste crit was in no way guaranteed to give you an extra crit. The point I was trying to make is, that you would need to sim ANY time length possible and take an average of haste vs crit to see which one is better and in the end both of them will be almost equal for ANY reasonable fight length you can imagine

And my overall point is that 1000 haste rating won't have the same effect on different fights.

4) I know you didn't even bother to read my sentence - but as you still insist: I said that you will never reach the crit cap, BUT you can still reach a point, where haste outscales crit without gaining the crit cap.

Oh, I definitely read yours. I don't think you read mine. I'm implying that you can't reasonably reach the crit cap given the gear we have. Well, I'm sure you could if you wore mostly leather items, but you'd be severely hindering your DPS by doing that so it's out of the question. If you're arguing something like that as your point though, then you're just being silly.

In summation, this seems to be an argument of "this this and this can happen in real time" versus "this this and this happen under ideal or extreme conditions". I can't argue the extremities you present, but said extremities simply don't exist. It's retarded to gear for something that is not practical, at all.

[Thoelle]

Ok i havent read everything so far!

but i suspect that this is what the thread is about:

!! this is a very rough version !!

lets say:

u had 0 strengh (0 ap) and 0 haste.
and u could choose to gain 1 strength or 1 haste rating each day

how many days would have to pass before 1 haste rating would grant a better dps than 1 strengh

your had a 3.6 speed weapon dealing 1-3 damage (0,55555555 dps)

[Badpaladin]

Ok i havent read everything so far but!

but i suspect that this is what the thread is about:

!! this is a very rough version !!

lets say:

u had 0 strengh (0 ap) and 0 haste.
and u could choose to gain 1 strength or 1 haste rating each day

how many days would have to pass before 1 haste rating would grant a better dps than 1 strengh

More days than you will live.

[Nöx]

Haste is good if it comes in your BiS gear instead of Arp. Besides that, you should full str+crit

[Nillo]

1) And making statements like "could crit 20 times in 20 seconds or 0 times in 20 seconds" is silly. You're taking a completely extreme side to prove a point that doesn't hold water given the context.

2) "oh shit, a healer is picked up so I have to heal Infest!"
3) I can't attack until this valkyr is out of it" all take the value of haste and flush it down the toilet.
4) Lich King hard mode is the epitome of a fight where you can't reliable sit on something for more than 30 seconds after phase one is over with(even there, crit > haste because you don't use SoC on gouls unless you feel like pushing more than two shamblers and causing a wipe).

5) And my overall point is that 1000 haste rating won't have the same effect on different fights.

6) Oh, I definitely read yours. I don't think you read mine. I'm implying that you can't reasonably reach the crit cap given the gear we have. Well, I'm sure you could if you wore mostly leather items, but you'd be severely hindering your DPS by doing that so it's out of the question. If you're arguing something like that as your point though, then you're just being silly.

7) I can't argue the extremities you present, but said extremities simply don't exist. It's retarded to gear for something that is not practical, at all.

1) Wait - who started this nonsense about haste being unreliable? It was you. And you still haven't proven, why you believe, that haste is unreliable. All I did was tell you, that the same rules apply to crit, but you keep insisting, that crit is reliable, while haste is not. Fight length isn't magically going to break haste and RNG isn't magically going to break crit, because in the end you won't always roll a 0 and if you really roll 0 on all attacks and the fight just ends before your white hit goes through - you were fucked up by RNG - chance for that happening are close to 0 in either case anyway.

2) Haste is better to top off several players with heals, because faster heals > random big heals, and if you do that while attacking you might as well get another white hit, while using your gcd for a non-damaging ability which also favors haste !_!.
3) And what makes crit better than haste if you can't attack at all? Nothing.
4) And what makes you think, that a fight length smaller than 30 sec is bad for haste? Actually it's bad for crit, because the damage done by RV need some rampup and haste even has a slightly better effect in the first few seconds due to faster sov stacking !_!.

5) So 1000 crit always give you the same amount of damage on all fights? I've made my example - still waiting for yours.

6) I never said anything about being able to reach the crit cap - ever. And I honestly don't know, why you keep telling me, that the crit cap is unreachable, because I already know that. And maybe, because you seem to be really locked up in your mind I will tell you again, that I already know, that you will never reach the crit cap.
But that I still believe, that you could get a gear , that uses a lot of leather stuff + has a low amount of haste + is the best gear you can get at that time. And with that gear gemming haste would be better than gemming crit.

7) Who makes it sound like haste would never give you an extra hit? Yes it's you => you're the one talking about extremities here. I just counter them with stating, that said extremities could also happen to your crit.

[manageri]

Just to put this into perspective, if your gear is anything like mine you prolly have less than half a dozen gem slots where this issue comes up. For me going from str/crit to str/haste gems would be a 0.03 difference in swing speed, meaning several minutes of smacking the target before I'd gain that extra swing. I can't really think of many bosses where I'm likely to be able to stand there and nuke for such lengths without temporarily having to leave melee range so I'm sticking with str/crit for now (especially since lich king hc certainly isn't such a fight and the rest are on farm). The chances of that 0.03 attack speed affecting the damage of a yellow attack that I'd use during the initial SoV build-up are also pretty slim.

[Badpaladin]

1) Wait - who started this nonsense about haste being unreliable? It was you. And you still haven't proven, why you believe, that haste is unreliable. All I did was tell you, that the same rules apply to crit, but you keep insisting, that crit is reliable, while haste is not. Fight length isn't magically going to break haste and RNG isn't magically going to break crit, because in the end you won't always roll a 0 and if you really roll 0 on all attacks and the fight just ends before your white hit goes through - you were fucked up by RNG - chance for that happening are close to 0 in either case anyway.

Whhaa....? I insist because the reasons are entirely different, as I've stated I think three times now. Fight length discrepancies, target swaps, burst damage and multiple adds all make haste unreliable because of how haste works. You can't have a 40% chance to get another swing in a fight(in conditions where haste rating is "wasted") but you can always get a 40% chance to crit.

2) Haste is better to top off several players with heals, because faster heals > random big heals, and if you do that while attacking you might as well get another white hit, while using your gcd for a non-damaging ability which also favors haste !_!.

You're not attacking when healing infest. You stand there and spamcast flash to "catch" infest because some people don't have priest shields. That's typically 4-6 targets, but my argument isn't that it makes heals better - both can be argued for that. My point is you stop DPS, so you don't get "that extra swing in". When you go back to DPS a bit though, you still have the same %chance to crit.

3) And what makes crit better than haste if you can't attack at all? Nothing.

Explanation is in response to (2)

4) And what makes you think, that a fight length smaller than 30 sec is bad for haste? Actually it's bad for crit, because the damage done by RV need some rampup and haste even has a slightly better effect in the first few seconds due to faster sov stacking !_!.

RV isn't what makes crit good in burst situations.

5) So 1000 crit always give you the same amount of damage on all fights? I've made my example - still waiting for yours.

I made my point! 1000 haste differs on a fight-per-fight basis. Chance to crit does not.

6) I never said anything about being able to reach the crit cap - ever. And I honestly don't know, why you keep telling me, that the crit cap is unreachable, because I already know that. And maybe, because you seem to be really locked up in your mind I will tell you again, that I already know, that you will never reach the crit cap.
But that I still believe, that you could get a gear , that uses a lot of leather stuff + has a low amount of haste + is the best gear you can get at that time. And with that gear gemming haste would be better than gemming crit.

Crit de-values severely past 72.8%. It only slightly drops in value at 54.8% crit fully raid buffed due to HoW, but HoW is worth soooo little of our DPS that isn't hardly noticeable. Crit wouldn't de-value enough to make it noticeably worse than haste. Coincidentally, haste would scale the exact same way as if you had gear with a lot. Both are linear in value(swing timers aren't, but haste's interaction with swing timers are, so you get the idea).

7) Who makes it sound like haste would never give you an extra hit? Yes it's you => you're the one talking about extremities here. I just counter them with stating, that said extremities could also happen to your crit.

Making it sound != intention. Haste does give extra swings, but not consistently in a fight-by-fight basis. No matter the fight, you will always have a set % chance to crit. That's why crit is more reliable and practical than haste. I'm not saying haste is bad, it's just impractical.

[Nillo]

1) in conditions where haste rating is "wasted"

2) You can't have a 40% chance to get another swing in a fight(in conditions where haste rating is "wasted") but you can always get a 40% chance to crit.

3) I made my point! 1000 haste differs on a fight-per-fight basis. Chance to crit does not.

4) Coincidentally, haste would scale the exact same way as if you had gear with a lot. Both are linear in value(swing timers aren't, but haste's interaction with swing timers are, so you get the idea).

5) Haste does give extra swings, but not consistently in a fight-by-fight basis. No matter the fight, you will always have a set % chance to crit. That's why crit is more reliable and practical than haste. I'm not saying haste is bad, it's just impractical.

6) RV isn't what makes crit good in burst situations.

1) And crit is never wasted? Having 5% more crit if you only do 1 attack per fight is going to give you 1 extra crit every 20 fights or if 1 fight lasts 20 attacks 5% crit _might_ give you an extra crit (there's even a good chance that it does not) . 5% haste on a fight, that lasts anywhere between 19 and 20 attacks is always going to grant you an extra attack.

2) We're not talking about 40% here you know? The amount of crit you can get from regemming and maybe using different gear will get to some 5% ish at best. So let's make an example for 5% haste vs 5% crit:
The fight length is ~20 sec and we have 3.0 sec attackspeed and ~2.85 with 5% haste.
In this amount of time we do
~ 4 CS + 4 DS + 2 Judgements + 6 white swings + 14 seals => a total of 30 attacks, that can crit =>
1.5 crits (this could be any number between 0 and 20, with an average of 1.5). But you could also say, that in 1 of 2 cases 1/3 of those 5% crit are wasted.

for haste it looks more like this:
Let's say the fight length varies for about 2-3 seconds so it might be something between 18 and 21 seconds:
So when do we get an extra hit? Answer: If the fight length is between 7*2.85 and 7*3 or between 19.95 and 21 seconds.
So the "chance" to get 1 extra hit is ~ 35% (1.05sec/3sec), because the fight length varies (and don't come telling me , that you always have exactly 21.01 seconds to nuke the valkyrs)
So in 2 out of 3 cases, the extra haste is wasted, but you also have to keep in mind, that haste rating is cheaper than crit (~25 vs ~45) and that an extra swing easily outdamages an extra crit.

3) Chance to crit does not , but it's still just a CHANCE to crit and because of that the amount of extra crit DOES differ on a fight per fight basis just like the fight length makes haste differ. Seriously you can't tell me, that crit is magically going to always grant you an extra crit if you need it and haste is never going to give you an extra hit if you need it.

4) My point was, that if you have an excess of 1 stat (lots of agi gear => huge amount of crit) and a low amount of another stat (low haste), that the relative stat values are going to swap into the direction of the lower stat => haste becomes more favorable, than crit.

5) As I already said it's a CHANCE to crit, just like it's a CHANCE, that the fight length just happens to match your haste rating. So why would one be less practical, than the other if they're both unreliable and have the same value on paper given any fight length?

6) RV is what makes crit bad in burst situations, because RV has no burst.

[Deleted]

I made my point! 1000 haste differs on a fight-per-fight basis. Chance to crit does not.

Crit de-values severely past 72.8%.

so you think haste is bad since the gains from it are random depending on fight lentght but you claim crit is good because its random all the time?
and crit starts to devalue before 72.8% and not only because of HoW being crit capped
short example going from 5 to 10% of crit is a 1.10/1.05=1,047 increase so an 4,7% increase in dps going from 50 to 55% crit is a 1,55/1,50=1,033(repeating offcourse) increase so a 3,3% increase in dps so at a high point in crit and with Taiaj and shadowmourne/bryntroll there is a very reachable point were haste beats crit.

[pcx226]

meh..i has 700+haste atm...swing timer is down to 2.12s with windfury/IIT but i want moar!!!!

[Badpaladin]

so you think haste is bad since the gains from it are random depending on fight lentght but you claim crit is good because its random all the time?
and crit starts to devalue before 72.8% and not only because of HoW being crit capped
short example going from 5 to 10% of crit is a 1.10/1.05=1,047 increase so an 4,7% increase in dps going from 50 to 55% crit is a 1,55/1,50=1,033(repeating offcourse) increase so a 3,3% increase in dps so at a high point in crit and with Taiaj and shadowmourne/bryntroll there is a very reachable point were haste beats crit.

Crit doesn't stack multiplicatively. Your calculations are assuming 5% crit gained is a "part of" the previous crit chance when that's not the case. It's just a linear value.

[Badpaladin]

1) And crit is never wasted? Having 5% more crit if you only do 1 attack per fight is going to give you 1 extra crit every 20 fights or if 1 fight lasts 20 attacks 5% crit _might_ give you an extra crit (there's even a good chance that it does not) . 5% haste on a fight, that lasts anywhere between 19 and 20 attacks is always going to grant you an extra attack.

And what if you get an extra attack at the 19th swing marker, but you're only hitting something for 18 swings before you need to swap targets, stop DPS, or the thing is dead? You're assuming conditions that are not always going to happen. However, crit does not rely on any of this. If you were to attack for only 1st and 20th "swing", you'd still be sitting at 5% chance to crit. You're not wasting anything other than DPS time, which will "waste" all stat values by your definition.

2) We're not talking about 40% here you know? The amount of crit you can get from regemming and maybe using different gear will get to some 5% ish at best. So let's make an example for 5% haste vs 5% crit:
The fight length is ~20 sec and we have 3.0 sec attackspeed and ~2.85 with 5% haste.
In this amount of time we do
~ 4 CS + 4 DS + 2 Judgements + 6 white swings + 14 seals => a total of 30 attacks, that can crit =>
1.5 crits (this could be any number between 0 and 20, with an average of 1.5). But you could also say, that in 1 of 2 cases 1/3 of those 5% crit are wasted.

for haste it looks more like this:
Let's say the fight length varies for about 2-3 seconds so it might be something between 18 and 21 seconds:
So when do we get an extra hit? Answer: If the fight length is between 7*2.85 and 7*3 or between 19.95 and 21 seconds.
So the "chance" to get 1 extra hit is ~ 35% (1.05sec/3sec), because the fight length varies (and don't come telling me , that you always have exactly 21.01 seconds to nuke the valkyrs)
So in 2 out of 3 cases, the extra haste is wasted, but you also have to keep in mind, that haste rating is cheaper than crit (~25 vs ~45) and that an extra swing easily outdamages an extra crit.

A 5% haste gain doesn't lower your swing timer by 1.5 seconds at the 3 second level. Also, (just going by your calculations) what if you were hitting for 21.01 seconds? Or any other value? You can't assume that you're going to swing X amount of times every time. There are far too many variables at play. That said, it doesn't matter how often you hit or how little you hit something - 5% crit will still be 5% crit. 5% haste has too many options to not do anything for you to make it a reliable stat when pertaining to progression like LK Valkyrs.

3) Chance to crit does not , but it's still just a CHANCE to crit and because of that the amount of extra crit DOES differ on a fight per fight basis just like the fight length makes haste differ. Seriously you can't tell me, that crit is magically going to always grant you an extra crit if you need it and haste is never going to give you an extra hit if you need it.

Statstically speaking, that's not the case in real time. Outliers will be outliers, but they're certainly not as varying as haste value discrepancies.

4) My point was, that if you have an excess of 1 stat (lots of agi gear => huge amount of crit) and a low amount of another stat (low haste), that the relative stat values are going to swap into the direction of the lower stat => haste becomes more favorable, than crit.

No, it won't. Crit and Haste are linear in value.

6) RV is what makes crit bad in burst situations, because RV has no burst.

What makes crit good in burst situations is doing 200%/150% damage on abilities in a short window of time, leading to a lot more overall damage. RV takes time to build in value.

Just another issue though, why are you defending haste/str gems when you have TAiaJ and are gemming crit, along with being over 50% unbuffed? What you're saying and what your armory suggests are contradictory.

[Nillo]

1) A 5% haste gain doesn't lower your swing timer by 1.5 seconds at the 3 second level. Also, (just going by your calculations) what if you were hitting for 21.01 seconds? Or any other value? You can't assume that you're going to swing X amount of times every time. There are far too many variables at play. That said, it doesn't matter how often you hit or how little you hit something - 5% crit will still be 5% crit. 5% haste has too many options to not do anything for you to make it a reliable stat when pertaining to progression like LK Valkyrs.

2) Statstically speaking, that's not the case in real time. Outliers will be outliers, but they're certainly not as varying as haste value discrepancies.

3) No, it won't. Crit and Haste are linear in value.

4)Just another issue though, why are you defending haste/str gems when you have TAiaJ and are gemming crit, along with being over 50% unbuffed? What you're saying and what your armory suggests are contradictory.

1) Again you didn't even bother to read or understand my example. And 21.01 seconds would give you the same result as 18.01 seconds and everything higher than 22.8 seconds would again be favorable for haste. I was giving a timespan , where the lowest amount of time (18 sec) was worst case for haste and everything between 20 and 21 sec was best case for haste, the chance for the good case was 1/3. There are no other variables than this - stop pretending there are.

2) I have absolutely no idea, what you're trying to tell me here.

3) When did I say anything else? I said If you have an excess amount of crit and a low amount of haste, that due to the nature of linear scaling Haste will be better than Crit, because increasing a multiplier from 1.1 to 1.2 is more dps, than increasing another from 1.5 to 1.6.

4) My haste is also fairly high and by asking rawr I'd only need to swap out a single Str/Haste item for an Agi item without haste to make Haste gems better than crit gems. !_!

[Swampmoose]

[Christan]

As already mentioned, haste isn't that good.

It doesn't give any benefit to instant attacks (judgement, crusader strike, divine storm) so STR will beat it at any gear level.

T10 bonus has a chance to reset divine storm on melee attack right?
so how does haste not effect that? its more divine storms, and seal of vengeance+ glyph
means you free up 10 expertise worth of itemization for haste, giving you more to put into str... sounds interesting.

more melee attacks = DS getting reset more often AND SoV damage Procs, as well as getting back up to 5 stacks faster

[Badpaladin]

There are no other variables than this - stop pretending there are.

I think I've made it quite clear, multiple times, that there are more than just swing timers involved. Your calculations also have too large a window due to the very generous amount of haste you're giving, but that's not the point.

I have absolutely no idea, what you're trying to tell me here.

That reality and theory aren't the same? Crit % and real-time are pretty on the money, with few outliers. Haste changes with every single fight.

My haste is also fairly high and by asking rawr I'd only need to swap out a single Str/Haste item for an Agi item without haste to make Haste gems better than crit gems. !_!

Run that through Bellator's Spreadsheet(I think Exemplar took the name...dunno yet, but he modified it). RAWR is pretty unreliable, especially when modelling TAiaJ(Frmorrison's model still isn't accurate). If Bellator's says you should do that, then I'll concede to that when regarding your armory...even if I still don't think it's practical =P

Overall, I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. Haste is better than crit in some scenarios, and crit is better than haste in others. Personally, I'm a crit fanboy because I believe it to be more reliable, but you seem to lean the other way so...besides, I think this thread was about some moron trying to stack haste over strength. That's not even academically entertaining.

[Nillo]

I think I've made it quite clear, multiple times, that there are more than just swing timers involved. Your calculations also have too large a window due to the very generous amount of haste you're giving, but that's not the point.

And you have never given any example of what you were talking about. And I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say with "generous amount of haste".

And stilll..... WHAT'S THAT SHIT ABOUT CRIT BEING RELIABLE?. IT IS NOT. POINT OVER. END. OUT. Get this in your head !_!

[Badpaladin]

And you have never given any example of what you were talking about.

Yeah, I sort of have. Quite a few times, restated a few as well.

And I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say with "generous amount of haste".

5% melee haste != (3.0)(.95). The discrepancy is giving you a bigger "happy haste spot".

And stilll..... WHAT'S THAT SHIT ABOUT CRIT BEING RELIABLE?. IT IS NOT. POINT OVER. END. OUT.

Again, theory versus real time. I'm not at 104.8% crit, so theoretically speaking my CS could never crit once.