WotLK hate threads: All in one (please read this one)

[PrettyBiased]

Eh, I guess I look at the art and the lore more than I do the instances and the raids and the PVP. Even those have a story and art behind them. Really loved the music score, too.

I did farm for quite a bit of stuff (damn you, Frost Giant rep... and damn you, too, frostweave!), but more than anything I enjoy role playing. It adds an entirely new dimension to the game. Once you start to behold something to its emotional depth, it really does make it more alive, and Wrath/WoW is just one of millions of examples.

Of course, the downside is that I sometimes am not happy with the way things turn, but then I learn to be at peace with that. This isn't a fanfic where everything we want will happen, after all, and the unpredictability is what makes it worthwhile. For example, the Wrathgate/Battle for Undercity event took me by surprise and I enjoyed it, but Garrosh becoming Warchief? Eh, not as much, but that's a whole other tangent.

All I'm saying is, perhaps my opinion is centered less on game statistics and more on the artistic soul of the game. I've made up my mind in believing video games, like music and movies and books and paintings, are works of art born of the minds and hands of people.

Allow me to make my stance on this issue quite clear to you, I have absolutely no desire to take anything away from you or another player. The only thing I want and fight for on a daily basis is to have something put back in the game for me, the ambitious high end raider with very little left to do. Why people think that these mentalities cannot co-exist is beyond me, I am willing to settle and I am willing to please everyone. We pay monthly for this game afterall, we deserve to be wholly satisfied and I say that with respect to you and your goals and me and mine universally.

[Adrius Frostglare]

Well... I must say, you are at least a worthy and respectable contender in this debate. I should thank you, as this is a rare occasion.

I take my stance because Wrath gave others more opportunity to taste everything. The raids were easier, the loot more available. Consider it equity. Not everyone has the free time to invest in raids or PVP. It's just a universal fact that we are diverse.

I do get your stance in the situation. Believe me, I do. It isn't that Blizzard isn't or didn't try to satisfy everyone, they really have, and I can see that (this coming from someone who greatly distrusts big corporations).

As stated before, my biggest beef is with the disrespectful brats who find no satisfaction in anything, whose narrow minds cannot go beyond their own needs. I think we as a fan/playerbase could just show a bit more goodwill and, if not give constructive criticism, try to be graceful about our distaste.

[Creotor]

As a high end raider of every expansion of this game, I will tell you that is absolutely a universal truth that you do not have to farm even a third as much in WOTLK than you did in vanilla, and more or less farm the same as you had to in TBC. Wrath (this is where my opinion comes into play, see I can differentiate between fact and opinion) to me killed the reward of high end raiding, getting to see a boss used to be a reward, now it is a static variable and a given that reward is dead and gone. Another reward was unique looking weapons and high end gear, now there is still high end gear but it looks exactly the same as anything else which lessens the feel, lessens the pride, lessens the accomplishment. The difficulty of very few hardmodes are on par with SWP and I'd concede many of them are on par with black temple but then again we're talking about an entire expansion here, and you're citing (as nearly everyone does) a single boss.

Read my post more carefully. By universal truth I meant that you said WotLK killed blah-blah even though the mentioned blah-blah is different for everyone and for casuals (the vast majority of players) not only did WotLK not kill it, but it made it better.

Farming... I was never a high-end raider in TBC, but raid preparation wise, you still had to farm quite a bit more in TBC than in WotLK. In Wrath we have what... Sons of Hodir rep and that's about it. No resist gear farm, no rep farm. I don't remember what flasks in TBC cost exactly, but wasn't it around 50g? Very close to how much 2 hours flasks cost in WotLK despite a very heavy gold inflation.
I'm not sure why killing hard bosses such as Yogg 0, Mimiron, Algalon, Freya 3, Lich King, Putricide, Sindragosa and some other less challenging ones is less satisfying for you than TBC/Vanilla hard bosses... can't really say anything here.
There were multiple items with identical skins in TBC as well, granted, not as many as in Wrath, but plenty. Also, playing WoW for pride is just wrong. But that's strictly my opinion.
Anyways, I'm out since we're just arguing for the sake of being right by any means and probably will never agree with each other. I'll read your reply if it makes you feel better, but won't respond to it.

P.S. I cited Ulduar and ICC hardmodes, not only LK.

[Lysah]

PS:Any mods read this already? :P

Yes, I read everything. I don't always have anything to add, however.

[Ilikeforums]

WOTLK SUCKS BECAUSE OF EASY COMPS LIKE TSG AND LOL MELEE

[PrettyBiased]

Read my post more carefully. By universal truth I meant that you said WotLK killed blah-blah even though the mentioned blah-blah is different for everyone and for casuals (the vast majority of players) not only did WotLK not kill it, but it made it better.

Wotlk certainly watered down the reward process of raiding, as far as it killing things I will leave that open for interpretation.

Farming... I was never a high-end raider in TBC, but raid preparation wise, you still had to farm quite a bit more in TBC than in WotLK. In Wrath we have what... Sons of Hodir rep and that's about it. No resist gear farm, no rep farm. I don't remember what flasks in TBC cost exactly, but wasn't it around 50g? Very close to how much 2 hours flasks cost in WotLK despite a very heavy gold inflation.

I can't remember the cost of raid consumables in TBC, but it was trivial just like in wrath. Resist sets were more to farm but they were an alternative to gated bosses and in my opinion I'd rather farm resist sets and raid a new boss in four days than farm nothing and wait four weeks.

I'm not sure why killing hard bosses such as Yogg 0, Mimiron, Algalon, Freya 3, Lich King, Putricide, Sindragosa and some other less challenging ones is less satisfying for you than TBC/Vanilla hard bosses... can't really say anything here.

Because almost all of those bosses are not new bosses, they are modes of bosses. There is a very restricted feeling of accomplishment going from 0 tree freya to 3 tree freya. Algalon was pretty cool because he was an achievement, meaning you had to work to get to him. Yogg and every other boss you mentioned was instantly available and just as immediately reached on regular difficulty, revisiting the instance to do achievements and hardmodes is never as fulfilling as defeating a unique and difficult instance once over. That is the reason it was less satisfying than vanilla and TBC raids, the content is recycled, rehashed, and redistributed.

There were multiple items with identical skins in TBC as well, granted, not as many as in Wrath, but plenty. Also, playing WoW for pride is just wrong.

I never said people play wow for pride, but people certainly take pride in their achievements. Why do you think the title process was even invented, to offer players a very cost effective method of displaying their achievements. Do you not take pride in your achievements, or do you have none? I am certain that if you have ever worked hard for something and accomplished it, you would then take pride in that positive outcome.

Anyways, I'm out since we're just arguing for the sake of being right by any means and probably will never agree with each other. I'll read your reply if it makes you feel better, but won't respond to it.

P.S. I cited Ulduar and ICC hardmodes, not only LK.

[prince0gotham]

Well... I must say, you are at least a worthy and respectable contender in this debate. I should thank you, as this is a rare occasion.

I take my stance because Wrath gave others more opportunity to taste everything. The raids were easier, the loot more available. Consider it equity. Not everyone has the free time to invest in raids or PVP. It's just a universal fact that we are diverse.

I do get your stance in the situation. Believe me, I do. It isn't that Blizzard isn't or didn't try to satisfy everyone, they really have, and I can see that (this coming from someone who greatly distrusts big corporations).

As stated before, my biggest beef is with the disrespectful brats who find no satisfaction in anything, whose narrow minds cannot go beyond their own needs. I think we as a fan/playerbase could just show a bit more goodwill and, if not give constructive criticism, try to be graceful about our distaste.

Damn, i sooo like the way you think. Now I know i shouldn't have even dared to post in that wotlk-hate-thread cuz now I'm sure how many people like you said the same i did just now. I mean... you're right about everything and I'll let myself strafe away from the topic a bit to make a comparison.

There was this guy earlier in this thread that posted links to sites where fandom was explained. This and this whole thread reminded me (oddly enough) of what happened to Guy Ritchie and his movies. (I'm a movie maniac and I do that a lot. I mean... what those sites said about fandom counts for me as well tho I am not sure to which type of a fan I'm sticking to cuz I haven't read everything in the site yet.)

Anyway.

There were Lock stock and Two Smokin' Barrels you see and there was Snatch, which were greatly successful for Ritchie. Then there was Mean Machine which wasn't al that great but I enjoyed it. The first two developped a Guy Ritchie fanbase.

Then the poor guy decided to dedicate himself and 3 years of his life to reading a lot of stuff that's required for his next movie which was Revolver. He was sure that it will be his best movie and totally new and unexpected for his fans but this was a double-edged knife. His fans expected something like Snatch and didn't like Revolver (in other words they hated the fact that he changed his own style). Funny thing is, when he did Rock'n'Rolla most of the fans were annoyed AGAIN cuz they've grown tired of his style and him going back to it was a backslider they thought.

Now that makes sense... Conclusion? Once you do something great the chance of pleasing the masses reduces also greatly. With your first work you attract attention and approval but the same attention does you no favor later on because from that point on everything you do is being monitored through the fanbase looking glass with all the wrong reasons.

Personally i LOVED Revolver because it has more sense and meaning than his first two movies. It wasn't a popcorn movie and it wasn't for everybody, not to mention 3 years of reading books had to count for something didn't they? And above all -> the topic of Revolver is very applicable to the science about wow fans and players. It's a movie talking about pride, ego and lust for approval.

Check this out and you'll see what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGbu197Hiqg

So as you said players take pride in all the wrong things. The same pieces of gear that took you weeks of tries and countless hours on Vent will be obsolete in the next patch. What won't be is the connection and level of communication you establish with players and what happens there, the spark that lights between some people (rarely enough), but noone ever takes pride in that. Getting high end gear is a good and convenient way of feelings superior at something and ofcourse forgetting the fact that it took 24 other players + luck on drops + luck on rolls to get those pieces (which are things that are not at all up to you and your skill).

The same reference can be made between WoW and Fight Club. You know... the usual 'You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake, we are all part of the same compost heap' and as communist as it does sound - it's right, even though it's only the one side of the coin. But the wrong thing would be seeing only the other one.

I made a macro yesterday that translated Fight Club quotes in wow language and said it in /1. For example:

You are not your bank character. You are not the contents of your bag. You are not the mount you ride...

stuff like that

clicked it a few times.

All i got is several wisps one of which was (I'm quoting here, not just imitating): 'Lol get some gear noob'.

Yeah.... like talking to a tree.

EDIT: OH WAIT A SEC... just realized the one with the links bout fandom was you.... christ i feel stupid now. Anyway, for the fight club macro - i really didn't expect anything different than what actually happened but it does prove what we're all thinking.