As far as trinkets go,

[chupatwo]

thanks tomani, i love you for actually discussing this with me.

the reason i believe arc mages need on attk procs is because we love haste, and hitting often. meaning we will be getting those procs off much more quickly once off CD than other classes could.

also, getting rid of a passive 84 haste that stays with you, and a proc that is worth more dps (see that smart girls math),
for more mana/crit (thought crit was like, a lame stat for arc!?) and an extra button you could push on CD, to me seems like gearing you toon for 30seconds every three minutes of an encounter.

and to me, it seems lame. i mean, i know arc's are like renowned for our burst dps, but to completley negate the long haul for those thirty seconds to be more powerful seems lame.

and im gonna say it again, the on use of talisman is weaker than the proc of the rune, because you the player chooses when to use is IV/AE/MI. and it could just as easily be during a few proc from awesome dps items like the rune, and not lame holy pally trinkets like the talisman.

<3

[chupatwo]

You don't back your arguement up with any facts, it's just you saying "Talisman is BAAAD"


OP, listen to the person who has the facts, in this case get rid of the Rune first and keep Talisman.

Simulations are more accurate than one person saying his own opinion.

hey bro, i DID say whats her name did the math and stuff, its in this thread buddy okay?!

geez..

[Irony]

blah blah blah

Being unique doesn't make you useful. 99 people are gonna be right more often than one.

[chupatwo]

Being unique doesn't make you useful. 99 people are gonna be right more often than one.

hey bro,

bad mages gearing for mana regen are bad.

hows that for unique :

[Lolsteak]

thanks tomani, i love you for actually discussing this with me.

the reason i believe arc mages need on attk procs is because we love haste, and hitting often. meaning we will be getting those procs off much more quickly once off CD than other classes could.

also, getting rid of a passive 84 haste that stays with you, and a proc that is worth more dps (see that smart girls math),
for more mana/crit (thought crit was like, a lame stat for arc!?) and an extra button you could push on CD, to me seems like gearing you toon for 30seconds every three minutes of an encounter.

and to me, it seems lame. i mean, i know arc's are like renowned for our burst dps, but to completley negate the long haul for those thirty seconds to be more powerful seems lame.

and im gonna say it again, the on use of talisman is weaker than the proc of the rune, because you the player chooses when to use is IV/AE/MI. and it could just as easily be during a few proc from awesome dps items like the rune, and not lame holy pally trinkets like the talisman.

<3

For example if you do 10k more dmg in those 30 seconds say 3 times in fight (30k) it's waay better than doing 25k throughout the fight (numbers totally made up but you get the point)

It's not another button to press things like trinkets are easily macroed, with the ICD's of the onattack procs being TOTALLY different the chances of you using your CD's while they're up together is pretty low, meaning if they're not up a few times in a fight you've lost DPS there n then, whereas the Talisman will be up when you need it.

I won't even bother rating your character....

[Valanna]

"It's better to keep your mouth shut making people believe you're retarded, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Thought I'd just tell you that, chupatwo.

[chupatwo]

For example if you do 10k more dmg in those 30 seconds say 3 times in fight (30k) it's waay better than doing 25k throughout the fight (numbers totally made up but you get the point)

It's not another button to press things like trinkets are easily macroed, with the ICD's of the onattack procs being TOTALLY different the chances of you using your CD's while they're up together is pretty low, meaning if they're not up a few times in a fight you've lost DPS there n then, whereas the Talisman will be up when you need it.

I won't even bother rating your character....

a rune on a 45s cd,/10 seconds
a talisman on a 2minute cd/20 seconds

hmm.. i wonder whats gonna be active more often

also the "chances" of using your cd's while you have lightweave/rune active and pretty high, if you DO IT WHEN THE PROCS ARE UP.

[Valanna]

hey bro,

bad mages gearing for mana regen are bad.

hows that for unique :

Could you please log our in your PvE gear. I so badly need a laugh right now.

[Irony]

hey bro,

bad mages gearing for mana regen are bad.

hows that for unique :

At this point I really do hope you're trolling for your sake.

[Valanna]

a rune on a 45s cd,/10 seconds
a talisman on a 2minute cd/20 seconds

hmm.. i wonder whats gonna be active more often

also the "chances" of using your cd's while you have lightweave/rune active and pretty high, if you DO IT WHEN THE PROCS ARE UP.

It's easy as hell to plan and use your CDs prior to your ICDs running out, yes. However the chance in very low that more than one, possibly two of these are going to align the way you with them to. Either way I doubt you use procodile, ntk or any other icd tracker. If you're going to wait until all 3 procs are up to pop your on-use abilities, you wouldn't pass 5k dps. Maybe you don't.

[chupatwo]

"It's better to keep your mouth shut making people believe you're retarded, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Thought I'd just tell you that, chupatwo.

wow, your napkin maths thing was way more impressive.

this is just mean, and uncalled for, and i have been nothing but nice, and all you people are doing is calling me names because i have an opinion, and its not like its a blind opinion. i mean i have reasons, can you dispute that?

are my reasons really so aweful? why? please tell me what you think because im here to discuss the value of the talisman vs. the rune.
not your mean quote that made my soul cry. :-[

[Tonomi]

Well, let's take a look at stat weightings. Let me use the ones for my personal gear as an example. For me, each point of haste is equivalent to 0.88 SP, while each point of Int is worth 0.53 SP when fully raid buffed and at my normal latency. 84 haste is equal to roughly 73.9 spellpower. The 128 Int is modified by Kings (+10%) and Arcane Mind (+15%) giving a total of 161.9 Int, which turns into the equivalent about 85.8 spellpower. Your stat weightings will vary, but for most situations, the equivalent spellpower contribution of the int from Talisman is higher than the haste from the Rune. This might not hold true when you're at the extreme high end of gear, but at that point, you've probably replaced both of the trinkets in question by then.

Edited for a bit more clarity of phrasing.

[Lolsteak]

a rune on a 45s cd,/10 seconds
a talisman on a 2minute cd/20 seconds

hmm.. i wonder whats gonna be active more often

also the "chances" of using your cd's while you have lightweave/rune active and pretty high, if you DO IT WHEN THE PROCS ARE UP.

You have a knack of not reading things before opening your mouth...

Just because it's up more often doesn't mean it's a net DPS gain, waiting with your CD's until the planets align and your procs appear to use them is a net DPS loss, and with DIFFERENT (Note that) ICD's the chances of them proccing at the same time is LOW (Remember what i wrote a few words ago? Different).

[chupatwo]

At this point I really do hope you're trolling for your sake.

how is it for my sake,

and yeah ill log in with my pve crap on,
val. only because although youve all been mean to mean, i would like to see what kind of mean critisizam you have for my mage.

[Irony]

how is it for my sake,

I'm calling you stupid. Is everything clear now...?

[hlin]

and im gonna say it again, the on use of talisman is weaker than the proc of the rune, because you the player chooses when to use is IV/AE/MI. and it could just as easily be during a few proc from awesome dps items like the rune, and not lame holy pally trinkets like the talisman.

Sure, if all you do is tank and spank fights.

But there's actually quite a number of fights where it is beneficial to be able to control _when_ to burst. This is one of the reasons why arcane mages are good, when stuff needs to go down quickly, we can deliver.

Let's do a quick review of ICC bosses:

- Marrowgar
- Deathwhisper
- Gunship

These 3 are intro fights, doesn't matter too much how you do your bursts.

- Saurfang
Especially for hard mode, you want the burst to happen on the adds, and in the last 30%, but you should have no movement, so it's not a huge advantage to be in control of CD's.

- Festergut
Assuming you get to stay in, it doesn't matter, if you don't, you'll be wasting your procs while running for spores

- Rotface
Wasting procs while running with slime and running from explosion

- Putricide
You'll be wasting your procs a lot here, not just in the phase transitions, but also when switching target or running for adds.

- Blood princes
Not really hard on dps requirements so doesn't matter too much, but you'll still be wasting procs when spreading out for empowered vortex

- Blood queen
Wonderful fight for arcanes. You'll be wasting procs when feared or running with flame or biting

- Dreamwalker
Depends on strategy, you'll probably want to have your CD's ready for the more intensive last part of the fight and burn them on a skeleton or the like.

- Sindragosa
Loads and loads of proc wasting here, i doubt you'll get use of your procs more than half the time, you'll be clearing your stacks or have unchained magic or iceblocked when your procs hit.

- Lich King
Such an intense encounter with very specific burst phases: valkyrs and raging spirits. You'll be spending a fair bit of time running away from defile and to/from edge for transition and loosing procs.


So, TL,DR:
4/12 encounters: Doesn't matter too much when you get procs and you can fire your CD's on top of procs
8/12 encounters: You'll loose loads of procs to movement/mechanics, and it's much more valuable or even essential to be able to burn when needed

As i said before (also in response to OP), when i had one spot for rune/talisman, i kept them both in bags and switched according to the fight.

[Lolsteak]

how is it for my sake,

and yeah ill log in with my pve crap on,
val. only because although youve all been mean to mean, i would like to see what kind of mean critisizam you have for my mage.

You havn't even completed Ulduar...

You cleared the first wing of ICC 3 months ago, and yet havn't cleared any others?

[chupatwo]

You have a knack of not reading things before opening your mouth...

Just because it's up more often doesn't mean it's a net DPS gain, waiting with your CD's until the planets align and your procs appear to use them is a net DPS loss, and with DIFFERENT (Note that) ICD's the chances of them proccing at the same time is LOW (Remember what i wrote a few words ago? Different).

when youre an arc mage casting 4 arc blasts in 5 secs, i think the stupid proccs will be proccing just fine!
and hey!! the smart chick did math!! rune proc is better sp than talisman cd. so.. ha!


and btw tomoni, nice stuff there, i didnt realize int even gave a buff to your direct spell power.
but hey, thats why you get paid the big bucks bro!! or not, its not really my place to ask how much money you make lol :

my opinion wont sway, as i am a stubborn bastard, but of all the meanies on here tomoni is my favorite and actually provided me with a reason to see int as a dps stat. TY!

btw btw, val, think my armory should be updated.

[Lolsteak]

when youre an arc mage casting 4 arc blasts in 5 secs, i think the stupid proccs will be proccing just fine!
and hey!! the smart chick did math!! rune proc is better sp than talisman cd. so.. ha!


and btw tomoni, nice stuff there, i didnt realize int even gave a buff to your direct spell power.
but hey, thats why you get paid the big bucks bro!! or not, its not really my place to ask how much money you make lol :

my opinion wont sway, as i am a stubborn bastard, but of all the meanies on here tomoni is my favorite and actually provided me with a reason to see int as a dps stat. TY!

btw btw, val, think my armory should be updated.

Because casting faster spells reduces the ICD.... oh wait

[chupatwo]

You havn't even completed Ulduar...

You cleared the first wing of ICC 3 months ago, and yet havn't cleared any others?

hey man never said i was completing content, i dont see why that makes my points any less valid..
and to the mean guy who said im stupid, congrats, you have really done a lot for this thread, and im sincerly glad you are awesome enough to provide the internet with this gem of information.

dude im crying, thats how mean you are right now, :-\