Holy Crap. Split Raids.

[Vaengence]

On the opposite side of the coin, why should some one that puts more time into a game be rewarded more than some one else anyway. Regardless of what you believe, we DO all pay the same monthly fee.

If you want to put time and effort into something in order to be better than other people, put it into your career, not a game.

I think people are missing the point. If 10 mans and 25 mans have the same difficulty then I can understand and am happy with being able to achieve the same kind of loot. The difference between them - and it is different no matter how you look at it - is that 25 man raiding takes a lot more effort to organize. More to find the correct people, from a guild perspective harder to get the right team, and maintain them.

Its about motivation. Getting the same gear is fine if its the same difficulty level but the last blue posts hinted that you are not going to get gear any more quickly in 25's than in 10's in which case incentive goes away. Noone wants to put in the harder effort to organize 25 man raids (other than nostalgia or unless you actually have that many friends online obviously) if the same result is achieved in 10's.

Is this inheritantly a bad thing? No, just as long as Blizzard is aware that 25 man raids will become much like the old 40 man raids - obsolete.

[Bamboozles]

If you want to put time and effort into something in order to be better than other people, put it into your career, not a game.

I play hockey for a living. I don't really see what I can do on top of what I am to better myself.

Don't troll me.

[Nexus2089]

Mushroom, I usually agree with you, but this one, you're off.

Why should people that play less than I do get the same gear as I do?

MMO's are generally about rewarding people that put in more time and effort. I hate to bring back the Vanilla argument becuase, personally, I love the way they've changed it since then, but people that put in the time and effort were rewarded.

As for your side in which 20 people show up, I don't remember the last time our raid didn't fully show up and came prepared. If your guild isn't getting the people you need on, either recruit more people or find a different guild.

I do have a solution, though. They can call the gear the same name, hell, even have the same stats, but make heroic versions of the encounters restricted to 25 mans (i.e, better gear and more emblems). This ensures that the hardcore raiders like myself, feel the pay off of putting your time and effort into the game.

My 2 cents.

Your not better just because you have more time than me sorry.

[Bamboozles]

Your not better just because you have more time than me sorry.

I didn't say that because I had more spare time, I was better.

I said I should be rewarded because I put more effort into the game. It's like real life, the people that put more effort into their work, typically get better rewards.

[Winfernal]

A good fix for those jackasses that leave a raid after the first or second boss doesn't drop loot for them. Also will allow for starting raids in 25 man one night and then allowing us to finish as a 10 if people can't show up later in the week.

If you can do like this,
It means that they have to increase the difficulity on 10 Mans. They have to!

I didn't say that because I had more spare time, I was better.

I said I should be rewarded because I put more effort into the game. It's like real life, the people that put more effort into their work, typically get better rewards.

Except, this is not the real life. Since this is a game, boundaries have to be set about how much time you must spend in this game to get rewarded with the best. In My opinion. Putting your effort in your real life work is something totally different, because thats real.

Im not saying that we should get it all on golden plates, but you cant expect (skilled, dedicated raiders etc.) people to replace this game over their lifes to get the highest rewards.

Being skilled and dedicated should be enough, there should not be higher rewards for people with more spare time.

Raider A: Raids 3 Days a week. Good Guild. Clears the hardest/most rewarding content during those days. At off days/when not in raids, hes spending his time IRL. (Family,Work etc.)

Raider B: Raids 5 Days a week. Clears the hardest/most rewarding content during those days. Spends almost all his time on WoW during off days/when not in raids.

If i understand this community right. Raider A would be a Casual Raider. And Raider B a Hardcore raider.

I dont know about you, but i think they both deserves equal rewards.

Maybe not the best example, but it should prove my point.

[BLSTMASTER]

Blizzard said they'll try to balance out 10mans so 10 and 25man raids are about the same difficulty.

Currently 10mans are designed to be 'easier' than 25mans.

So theoretically, a 10man would take just as much effort/time to complete as in a 25man raid.

This will be VERY difficult to do tho, I hope they don't get hung up on this idea too much that they have to limit the 'creativity' of the encounter itself.

[frownface2000]

If only 17 show up, you will have one group, and 7 quite mad players. Don't forget with the id merging it won't be as easy to fill up the raid with randoms as it is now.

What?
it's going to be FAR easier to fill your raid with randoms than it is now. As long ad your raid has downed more bosses than theirs has, they can join you.
If they've downed up to saurfang & ur on Sindy, then the Cata changes will allow them to join ur raid. Thats A LOT easier than convincing someone who isn't saved to come join.

[Halicia]

I hope there's going to be a solution for this in Cataclysm, because then there's no point to raid 25's.

its a game, there shouldnt NEED to be a point to it.

if you have a lot of friends you want to raid with, you do 25. if you have only a few, you do a 10.

what blizz has admitted they did "wrong" with 10/25 was by giving raiders the illusion that 25mans were the only "real" raids due to the gear disparity, and that 10mans were simply a warmup you did.

personally, i prefer 25s even with the same gear for two primary reasons...

#1. I get more loot (theoretically) gear/badges/gold from 25s in Cataclysm (unless blizz decides to change horses in midstream as they're fond of doing)
#2. The "workload" is more distributed in a 25man, meaning more emphasis on group excellence and less pressure on the individual.

Sometimes I die, and while the repair bill doesnt bother me, it bothers me when its in a 10man and they now need to wipe the raid because of it, whereas in a 25 we'd have others to pick up the slack, and likely a brez or two to go around.

Less effort working gives me more room to sit back and have fun. =)

[Winfernal]

By the way.

About the difficulity in 10mans, this may help on the difficulity;
Anyone killed LK10 HC in strict 10man gear?

There wont be a huge difference in gear at Cataclysm when it comes to 10/25 Man, actually, it will be the same. Therefore, you wont be able to overgear the 10mans, like you do now.
This wont be the only factor, there will be different mechanics and designs to. ofcourse.

Again, dont compare 10mans now to the 10 mans in the future.

[Bamboozles]

By the way.

About the difficulity in 10mans, this may help on the difficulity;
Anyone killed LK10 HC in strict 10man gear?

There wont be a huge difference in gear at Cataclysm when it comes to 10/25 Man, actually, it will be the same. Therefore, you wont be able to overgear the 10mans, like you do now.
This wont be the only factor, there will be different mechanics and designs to. ofcourse.

Again, dont compare 10mans now to the 10 mans in the future.

That's all we can really do, though. I've also said I hope they make 10 mans more difficult, because if it stays at its current difficulty, they're going to be a complete joke.

[MortalWombat]

Its about motivation. Getting the same gear is fine if its the same difficulty level but the last blue posts hinted that you are not going to get gear any more quickly in 25's than in 10's in which case incentive goes away. Noone wants to put in the harder effort to organize 25 man raids (other than nostalgia or unless you actually have that many friends online obviously) if the same result is achieved in 10's.

WRONG! This is how it really works, 25mans will get more drops from bosses than 10man but it will still be equal in item to player ratio. So the real benefit of 25mans is that you have more chances at the item you want dropping.

Sure there are more people you raid with but that item will most likely drop A FREKIN LOT for you. Maybe even twice in a kill if they allow it.

[ZachPruckowski]

ICC 10 man was easy back in ToC 25, 245 gear.

Two thoughts. Firstly, Blizzard deliberately made 10-mans easier than 25s in WotLK and made them drop worse gear. That's no longer the case in Cataclysm, so you shouldn't assume the difficulty disparities will carry over. Secondly, ICC10 was designed for people in ToC10 gear (ilvl 232), so of course it's easy, it's like saying "I can kill Kologarn in 232 gear".

said I should be rewarded because I put more effort into the game. It's like real life, the people that put more effort into their work, typically get better rewards.

It's also based on skill. Someone who puts in more time gets more rewards than someone else of the same skill level, but someone who is better skilled gets those rewards faster. It's also a team thing. If you are on a good team (like the Capitals or something), you will see better rewards for your practice time than if you are on the PeeWee Hockey Club Team. If you use proper strategies (and I have no idea what hockey strategies are) then you'll see more reward for your effort.