Expertise Cap for Combat PvP?

[Silence9]

Alright sorry for the wall of text but here is my dilemma and my story...

So, I decided I want to get more into PvP. I've never done much arena, and my PvP gear kind of sucks. So, my solution? Do battlegrounds, get some more resilience and then get into arena, start getting wrathful gear. But, I figured that I'd rather not fail at PvP in my full Furious Gladiator set (232 PvP gear), then I said to myself "Hey, I have some sweet PvE gear, maybe I can use that". So, in order to utilize my combat PvE gear for PvP, I got a Combat PvP spec (5/55/11) and I changed my PvE gear up a little so I could use swords and get as much ArP as possible (which is important for combat PvE), especially since I don't have DBW (I'm not happy about that either). I won't post my armory because, for whatever reason, people have been offended by how terrible a player I am when they see my armory and start yelling at me for things that are completely OT. But... my stats look like this...

Agility: 1906
Damage: 1284 - 1639
Speed: 2.07
Power: 4700
Hit Rating: 333
Armor Penetration Rating: 782 (55.87%)
Crit Chance: 49.67%
Expertise: 17
(This is in my modified PvP combat set, which is made up of 100% PvE gear, with a gearscore of 6130, mostly 264+ ICC items).

Ok so... the thing that I'm worried is the expertise, which is 17 (122 expertise rating). The cap is 26 expertise (214 expertise rating), so I'd need to socket for a lot of expertise to make up for that OR I could wear my 264 tier legs as opposed to the 277 Gangrenous Leggings. Wearing the tier legs would bring my expertise rating up to exactly 26 (214 expertise rating), which would be nice.

So I ask you guys... is it worth it to be expertise capped for combat PvP? If so, should I socket for a lot more expertise or just wear my tier legs?



Now, pay attention

[Annoying]

You need exactly 0 expertise for pvp. You should always be behind your target when executing any move, especially a finisher. Getting dodged, parried, or blocked is completely removable by superior positioning, so gearing/gemming for it is bad when you can adjust your play and get more offensive stats on your gear.

[StoicRoivaS]

You need exactly 0 expertise for pvp. You should always be behind your target when executing any move, especially a finisher. Getting dodged, parried, or blocked is completely removable by superior positioning, so gearing/gemming for it is bad when you can adjust your play and get more offensive stats on your gear.

To elaborate, since I'm assuming the OP isn't huge into the mechanics, the reason you need 26 exp in PvE is because you're generally facing boss level mobs (level 83) which have a higher defense rating. In pvp you're fighting only 80s, so expertise isn't needed (provided you're behind them). Bosses have some of their mitigation/avoidance removed when you're behind them, but players have all of it removed. No blocking, dodging, or parrying from behind.

[Silence9]

To elaborate, since I'm assuming the OP isn't huge into the mechanics, the reason you need 26 exp in PvE is because you're generally facing boss level mobs (level 83) which have a higher defense rating. In pvp you're fighting only 80s, so expertise isn't needed (provided you're behind them). Bosses have some of their mitigation/avoidance removed when you're behind them, but players have all of it removed. No blocking, dodging, or parrying from behind.

Ahh wow I feel stupid. You're right I'm not huge into the mechanics but I'm knowledgeable enough that I really should have known that, and I'm really kicking myself for overlooking these basic facts. Thanks Annoying and Stoic for pointing that out.

Does this mean then, that I should get rid of all my gear that has expertise on it? That would mean replacing...

Shadow Seeker's Tunic (iLvL 264, 92 expertise rating) with the 251 Tier chest piece.
3 Accurate Ametrines (in my gear because it's the gear I use for PvE) with 3 Fractured Cardinal Rubies

[Isadora985]

Also, with Surprise Attacks, dodging really shouldn't be an issue if facing someone anyways. There will be the super super low change they will parry you but as stated, you should be behind people anyways.

[bw13187]

You don't need expertise per se (I run with 0 on my rogue), but to say that you should expect to never be dodged or parried in PVP is quite inept.

Many classes spec for some percentage of dodge in PVP and many wear TONS of agility. Hunters have like 35% dodge with their aspect. And yes... PVPers with avoidance stats will not show you their back if they're trying to stay alive.

So it's not as simple as "get behind them lol." hell, i've been parried when on my screen, I was CLEARLY behind them. so it's a latency thing too.

DKs will parry your shit all the time, just because their str turns into parry passively. cool huh.

So if you have a really bad ass piece of PVE gear and want to wear it instead of a piece of junky PVE, don't feel like you're wasting stats just because it has expertise on it. It's not useless. If I had a nickel for every time some helpless warlock or something DODGED a finisher...

(which reminds me, you're combat, so NO ONE is going to be dodging blocking or parrying your finishers(surprise attacks), which makes parry a little worse for you actually, but it doesn't matter because you're either going to kill them in Killing Spree, or you're not.)

[Silence9]

You don't need expertise per se (I run with 0 on my rogue), but to say that you should expect to never be dodged or parried in PVP is quite inept.

Many classes spec for some percentage of dodge in PVP and many wear TONS of agility. Hunters have like 35% dodge with their aspect. And yes... PVPers with avoidance stats will not show you their back if they're trying to stay alive.

So it's not as simple as "get behind them lol." hell, i've been parried when on my screen, I was CLEARLY behind them. so it's a latency thing too.

DKs will parry your shit all the time, just because their str turns into parry passively. cool huh.

So if you have a really bad ass piece of PVE gear and want to wear it instead of a piece of junky PVE, don't feel like you're wasting stats just because it has expertise on it. It's not useless. If I had a nickel for every time some helpless warlock or something DODGED a finisher...

(which reminds me, you're combat, so NO ONE is going to be dodging blocking or parrying your finishers(surprise attacks), which makes parry a little worse for you actually, but it doesn't matter because you're either going to kill them in Killing Spree, or you're not.)

Good point, it's not like I can guarantee that I'm always going to be behind them, so expertise isn't 100% arbitrary. On the other hand, the fact that I play combat PvP and have suprise attacks certainly diminishes the value of expertise imo.

[Sesshou]

Hmm expertise cap is probably over 180 expertise (not rating, actual exp). Its possible to easily have over 45% dodge, 1 exp is .25% dodge reduction therefore to reduce a rogue or feral with ~45% dodge to 0% dodge you would need 180 expertise (thats ~180x32 expertise rating).

Edit: Also since you said you are combat, KS generally will hit from behind reliably so you won't need exp to murder people with it even during evasion.

Also I saw you only have 11 points in sub, you really should put the second point to reduce cooldown on cloak of shadows. Combat is already pretty squishy and easily kited, the faster cloak helps a lot with both.

[Koki]

You cant stay behind targets all the time you want, actually melees will be facing you most of the time, unless they are snared hrader than you, (in a world with 100 ms, you cant just turret rotate and get all attacks come from your front)
With surprising attacks you wont get finishers dodged as in kidney shot, since the other finishers lack of cd,therefore they are spammable, if you miss a finisher u will just get to pay 20% of it's cost, which is less than the amount u regenerate in the GCD you waste.


Eventual dodge / oarry doesnt punish rogues as hard as it does punish cd dependant melees (retris, warrs), if you fail an special attack, retry.
The only problem comes to moves with cooldown as in disarm / kidney mostly. But for these moves you just have to be more careful and either wait for them to cast, ensure you are on his back or gouge /cheap shot before.

Expertise helps but it isnt as valuable as hit (for soft cap) for example

[StoicRoivaS]

Ahh wow I feel stupid. You're right I'm not huge into the mechanics but I'm knowledgeable enough that I really should have known that, and I'm really kicking myself for overlooking these basic facts. Thanks Annoying and Stoic for pointing that out.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were outright stupid or anything, it's just that some of us take the game a lot more seriously than others, no need to be ashamed of that. I'm sure there was a time when we all had very little knowledge about what we would now consider "basic" game mechanics. As far as your gear, like some other people have said, expertise is certainly not "useless" in pvp. You won't always be behind your target. Heck you might not even mostly be behind your target. If your target is a decent player, it's not really hard at all for them to always "face" you. Holding down the right mouse button and swinging your camera to match your attacker accomplishes this quite well. So while expertise is not really a pvp stat, per-se, I definitely wouldn't fret about dropping it unless you just had tons and tons. Although I will recommend, unless the best pvp gear you can get is extremely weak, that you look into getting pvp pieces anyways. Unless your guild does hard mode ICC-25 and you absolutely hate doing arena (which creates a large pvp to pve ilvl gap) you're generally better off with pvp gear anyways. I'm not sure what your frost badge situation is like, but I've been selling my badges on two ICC-geared 80s for months now. My rogue got every pve piece he wanted and then got all 5 pvp core-set pieces from frost badges. If this is within your reach, it's a very good place to start.

[Ashtoncutter]

You don't need any expertise in PvP, just 5% hit (or more on some class like *mages*).

[Flaks]

just to sum it all up, you don't need any expertise on your gear and you should not be gemming arp. PvP works entirely different than PvE for rogues unlike warriors in terms of gearing and regardless of spec, you should be gemming ap in everything.

[deyndra]

Just stick with the gear you stated. Be around 3-400 resi and then you're fine.

[StoicRoivaS]

Just stick with the gear you stated. Be around 3-400 resi and then you're fine.

I'm not sure what sort of pvp you're comfortable doing in 300 resil, but I wouldn't really recommend anyone go under 800 or so. If you don't have a choice you don't have a choice, but the wording of 300 resil and you're fine worries me.

[Silence9]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were outright stupid or anything, it's just that some of us take the game a lot more seriously than others, no need to be ashamed of that. I'm sure there was a time when we all had very little knowledge about what we would now consider "basic" game mechanics. As far as your gear, like some other people have said, expertise is certainly not "useless" in pvp. You won't always be behind your target. Heck you might not even mostly be behind your target. If your target is a decent player, it's not really hard at all for them to always "face" you. Holding down the right mouse button and swinging your camera to match your attacker accomplishes this quite well. So while expertise is not really a pvp stat, per-se, I definitely wouldn't fret about dropping it unless you just had tons and tons. Although I will recommend, unless the best pvp gear you can get is extremely weak, that you look into getting pvp pieces anyways. Unless your guild does hard mode ICC-25 and you absolutely hate doing arena (which creates a large pvp to pve ilvl gap) you're generally better off with pvp gear anyways. I'm not sure what your frost badge situation is like, but I've been selling my badges on two ICC-geared 80s for months now. My rogue got every pve piece he wanted and then got all 5 pvp core-set pieces from frost badges. If this is within your reach, it's a very good place to start.

Well my guild does do ICC 25 heroic and there is that huge gap between 277 PvE gear and 232 PvP gear which is why I really don't use any PvP gear, save for sometimes a cloak, trinkets, maybe the 2 piece if I need to be kicking. I wouldn't say that I hate doing arena, but doing arena in 232 PvP gear and in a more traditional spec is, for me, less fun than blowing people up as combat and hoping that they're dead by the time my KS is over.
Also I wasn't offended by your first post, on the contrary I'm glad you pointed out that one theoretically doesn't need expertise in PvP, because you're facing lvl. 80 targets. I was just trying to say that I'm pretty knowledgeable about mechanics, and I really should have been able to figure that out on my own.

[Sesshou]

just to sum it all up, you don't need any expertise on your gear and you should not be gemming arp. PvP works entirely different than PvE for rogues unlike warriors in terms of gearing and regardless of spec, you should be gemming ap in everything.

Actually he pvp's combat. Arp can still be a decent stat for pvp.

@Deyndra
3-400 is way too low. Even in 2s I wouldn't go below 700, in 3s and 5s due to the number of people that can be focusing you at once I would hover around 1k min. At 3-400, with a MS on you, if your healer gets cc'd for even a second he won't be able to catch back up.