Cataclysm Screenshots, Blue posts

[Astalnar]

Is there any way for us to get some kind of slideshow for screenshots, like people already mentioned, what we have now is a bit time consuming.

Otherwise it is some interesting if not exciting news about reforging. I honestly thought that I will have to drop enig in favour of blacksmith.

[LeperHerring]

Honestly, let's look at some current content where they admit to messing up and see just how hard 10 vs. 25 can be.
But then you will say, 25 vs. 10... why do 25 at all? Well, the reward will be greater in some way, but not so much that you are theoretically "obligated" to do 25s over 10s. The feel will be much more epic. The encounters will be slightly different.

There will not be greater rewards, Blizzard have stated that explicitly. Everything is (supposedly) the same: difficulty, bosses, instances, achievement, drops, drops per player, etc. etc. They said 25 mans might drop a few more badges, but it's irrelevant since the maximum badges per week will be capped and people who don't do 25 mans can still reach that cap - and it's not like people care about badges after the first month or so.

The 10/25 system is already a bore, the slight change of encounters does not make 25 mans any more "epic" than 10 mans.

And even if nobody does 25 mans anymore, can you really be upset about that? Can you really blame people for doing the size of content they want to do? And besides... if there are more people out there like you and I who want to do the 25 instead of the 10, you're damn well sure that we'll not only find the people to make it happen, but we'll have fun doing it.

That's some twisted logic, first you make 25 mans obsolete, observe that everyone does 10 mans and then conclude that it's because people want to do 10 mans instead of 25 mans. No, the reason everyone does 10 mans is because you made 25 mans obsolete, NOT because people want to do 10 mans. They could just as well make 10 mans obsolete by having them drop no useful gear, then observe that everyone does 25 mans instead and then say that obviously everyone wants to do 25 mans and not 10 mans.

If the system goes live in its current state I'd expect the server top 25 man guild (or two) to do 25 man raids, but I suspect that most of the "medium" level 25 man guilds will change to 10 man guilds. Eventually even the few 25 man guilds will die out due to lack of recruits and lack of motivation. Furthermore, I suspect that since the number of competent raid leaders will not increase (will probably decrease) while the number of 10 man guilds will increase, there will be a huge churn of 10 man fail-guilds and raiding as a whole will get significantly worse for the average raider - as a response Blizzard will nerf all the content to the ground.

I believe the system will be a mess and practically kill 25 man raiding from the game. It would be far better if Blizzard designed completely separate 10 and 25 man raids (e.g., Kara/ZA vs. SSC/TK). Blizzard has made many great 25 man fights and many great 10 man fights. They have not made a single fight that great in both 10 mand and 25 man mode.

[Lumocolor]

But then you will say, 25 vs. 10... why do 25 at all? Well, the reward will be greater in some way, but not so much that you are theoretically "obligated" to do 25s over 10s. The feel will be much more epic. The encounters will be slightly different.

How will the rewards be greater without having anyone from 10 mans QQ? 2 extra badges isn't going to cut it and even then the 10 man people would go back to the "we deserve the same things as everyone else give us our 2 badges". Fact is it will have to be more then just extra badges/honor or whatever they will be calling it, i have 652 frost badges rotting away as it is, having them rotting faster isn't a big incentive to raid 25's.

Only reason people raid 25 is because of the bigger epeen for doing so, a top tier guild is not primarily about making friends (nobody in a 25 man guild loves everyone in the guild). The raid leader of a guild like paragon would Gkick his grandmother if she stood in too much sh*t. To them It's about killing stuff faster then anyone else, why wouldnt they just do it in 10 man if everything is equal?

Will next expansion just be 10 mans? May as well take the "MM" out of "MMORPG" and just call it an Online Role Playing Game....lol

[TheDesertDragon]

I like how people always opt for the smaller raidsize yet actually want to raid 25's.

If you want to raid 25's, raid 25's. If the difficulty is the same, then there isn't going to be any incentive not to. There's no reason to break up your entire guild to run smaller dungeons.

If raiding with a whole lot of people really was that bloody awesome, don't you think 25's would survive just on the virtue of more people?

The truth is that raiding is flawed to the core - people seem to opt for having less people in the dungeon and every mob seems stupid as a rock despite being a celestial mathematical genius or something. (Hi Alcalon having an aggrotable)

[Zookz25]

I'm not sure why so many people are butt-hurt about 10/25 mans having the same incentives.

As I see it, if you like 25-mans, you do those; if you like 10-mans, you do those; if you like min/maxing, you do whatever is best for min/maxing, in the same since you will swap out guildies under the same reasoning.

So, you THINK you might be forced to do 10-mans; again, but no one is forcing you, you're just doing it because that's how you like to play the game, you like to min/max.

As mentioned in the post, if blizzard makes one of the 2 choices have more incentive, then BLIZZARD THEMSELVES will be forcing the choice on players.

Blizzard wont be forcing you to go to 25-mans or 10-mans, the only thing forcing you is your own playstyle, or your mindset that is saying "I must do what is the most optimal and efficient thing! That's why I like playing this game!".

What's the problem?

[Moke]

What's the problem?

Retards that stand in random stuff, that's the problem. It's simpe math really. You got either 10 or 25 people for raiding. Try and find 25 good players, and try do the same for 10. Wonder what will go easier...

[TheDesertDragon]

Retards that stand in random stuff, that's the problem. It's simpe math really. You got either 10 or 25 people for raiding. Try and find 25 good players, and try do the same for 10. Wonder what will go easier...

I heard that 1/10 players making a mistake has a larger impact on your raiding team than 1/25 players making the same mistake, because losing ~1/5th of your total DPS as opposed to ~1/15 is completely equivalent. (Same argument goes for healers. For tanks it doesn't matter - you'll wipe either way)

Confirm/deny?

[Verth]

I'm sure the devs are laughing their asses off.
Not by the comic, but rather by the people who are drooling over the fact that there was "soon" after "the cataclysm beta is coming".

[Zookz25]

Retards that stand in random stuff, that's the problem. It's simpe math really. You got either 10 or 25 people for raiding. Try and find 25 good players, and try do the same for 10. Wonder what will go easier...

There, you just showed me what I was trying to tell you.

YOU play this game for the thrill of figuring the most optimal thing out, and doing it!

Get it?

PS: I'm guessing you don't, so I'll just say this:

Blizzard wants to player to decided what kind of raid they find fun, and let them do that, instead of telling them "You need to raid 25-man else you're a scrub and can never get the best gear/titles and shall forever be called a noob!"

If you like 25-mans, you can raid that and not feel like you'll never have the prestige of 10-man raiders.

If you like 10-mans, you can raid that and not feel like you'll never have the prestige of 25-man raiders.

If you like min/maxing (like yourself), you can figure out what raids are easier on 10-man or 25-man, and play that raid!

[LeperHerring]

As I see it, if you like 25-mans, you do those; if you like 10-mans, you do those; if you like min/maxing, you do whatever is best for min/maxing, in the same since you will swap out guildies under the same reasoning.

So, you THINK you might be forced to do 10-mans; again, but no one is forcing you, you're just doing it because that's how you like to play the game, you like to min/max.

They're not forcing anything. They're simply changing the model in a way that makes 25 man raiding undesirable when compared to 10 man raiding. The result will be that 25 mans will eventually die out.

[moorlock]

the screens look geart

[Zookz25]

They're not forcing anything. They're simply changing the model in a way that makes 25 man raiding undesirable when compared to 10 man raiding. The result will be that 25 mans will eventually die out.

Okay, one thing. Remember sarth? Yeah, was 10-man, or 25-man easier? Of the nightfall or Twilight Vanquisher? That easily shows a point where "Hey, 10-mans might not be easier than 25-mans!" This will most likely happen a lot more in Cata though, since they are actually trying to make 10s on par with 25.

I'll say it again, and this will be the last time.

You like to figure out the most optimal way to play, and play that way. You like finding out what gear is best; you like finding out optimal rotations and perfecting them; you like figuring out, and executing, efficiency; you have, by all means, the big-time achiever attitude.

Not EVERYONE is like that though, so when you say "10-mans are more optimal, so everyone will do those." Did you ever think that "Hey, some 25-man fights MIGHT actually be easier like sarth." Or, "Hey, maybe I like to just raid with a lot of other people!"

I mean, It's like saying Rated BGs are stupid because Arenas are more efficient due to you only needing 1 other person do do them with; plus, they're typically shorter in duration. But guess what, they are adding BGs back for competitive PvP because some people just LIKE playing with a lot of other people.

It's not that hard to understand. :P

[Kryss]

Retards that stand in random stuff, that's the problem. It's simpe math really. You got either 10 or 25 people for raiding. Try and find 25 good players, and try do the same for 10. Wonder what will go easier...

It depends :

- if your guild is already able to gather 25 skillfull players for raid and those like 25-man raids, I don't see what the Cataclysm changes will change…
- if your guild has 10-12 really good players but wants to do 25-man raids for the loots/status/whatever and recruited less-than-average skilled players to complete its roster, then you have a problem. Cataclysm can help you resolve it ("either improve or leave the top 10-man crew")
- if your guild has 10 really good players and likes to run 10-man raids and push them to their best, it is currenlty stupid not to reward them with top notch stuff only because Blizzard wants you to be a 25-man guild…

In the new system, the choice to do 10 or 25-man content belongs to the guildies. For guilds currently struggling to mantain 25-man teams throughout the week, the choice is either cancel raids, complete with pickup or recruit less than average skilled players to ensure 25 raidable players each raid day. The 25-man requirement for best gear limits a huge chunk of guilds by lowering their standards when recruiting or slowing their progression (raids cancelled or bad pickups).

"it is difficult to gather 25 skilled players so 25 man raids should be more rewarding" is the proof that the current system is flawed. Why bother running 25-mans with bad players instead of 10-mans with a good players ? Only the loot.

And what about beating hard content ? It has nothing to do in this kind of reasoning… True hard core raiders won't change their raid size to accomodate the new system unless 10-man or 25-man is really unbalanced for those min/maxing at all costs…

[VanishO2]

Okay, one thing. Remember sarth? Yeah, was 10-man, or 25-man easier? Of the nightfall or Twilight Vanquisher? That easily shows a point where "Hey, 10-mans might not be easier than 25-mans!" This will most likely happen a lot more in Cata though, since they are actually trying to make 10s on par with 25.

I'll say it again, and this will be the last time.

You like to figure out the most optimal way to play, and play that way. You like finding out what gear is best; you like finding out optimal rotations and perfecting them; you like figuring out, and executing, efficiency; you have, by all means, the big-time achiever attitude.

Not EVERYONE is like that though, so when you say "10-mans are more optimal, so everyone will do those." Did you ever think that "Hey, some 25-man fights MIGHT actually be easier like sarth." Or, "Hey, maybe I like to just raid with a lot of other people!"

I mean, It's like saying Rated BGs are stupid because Arenas are more efficient due to you only needing 1 other person do do them with; plus, they're typically shorter in duration. But guess what, they are adding BGs back for competitive PvP because some people just LIKE playing with a lot of other people.

It's not that hard to understand. :P

Remember that Sarth 10 is on Blizz list of "we messed up"?

When even Blizzard says that they won't be able to make 10 and 25 on par, but rewarding the same stuff (even achievements), then... even if you love 25 mans, you'll need to find 24 other players that love that too, that won't miss raids (since you can't resize 10 back to 25, if you do resize 25 to 10 because you don't have 25 online, you're in fact beeing forced to raid 10man that week instead of the 25 you love), etc... remember that most of the "I play 25s" players today run that because it's better rewarding than 10.

If you give only one achievement for both, even the top 25man raid guilds would prefer to run smaller groups to acomplish the realm's 1sts, etc... you know that the other guilds racing against you for 1st kills will probably be running more efficient 10s instead of harder 25s for the feat of strenghts!

In the end, R.I.P. 25 man raiding.

One step closer to 5 man "raiding".

[Many]

I ask you: "What is bad about current system??

[Many]

I will ask you one thing.... "What is bad about current system??"

[Many]

I will ask you one thing.... "What is bad about current system??"

[Zookz25]

I remember Sarth. That was the only case, besides LK(Heroic I think), where Blizzard admitted that the 10-man encounter was made too difficult right?

They also stated that they were trying to make 10-mans easier than 25-mans, amirite? Therefore making it harder was a BIG mistake by them.

For Cata, they are trying to make both them them equal, so making the 10-man harder than the 25-man will only be a minor mistake by them.

10-mans are easier to organize and run than 25-mans. If you had an infinite number of people playing World of Warcraft, all of whom wanted to raid, this would still be true.
Why? Because 10 is a smaller number than 25.

"I say 10-mans are more optimal!
Therefore all guild will raid 10-mans!"

Yeah, induction doesn't always work like that.

I get what you are saying, it's easier to find 9 smart people than it is to find 24 smart people.

But what I'm saying is not everyone plays this game to "Be the best!" or "Catch um all!" or just min/max. Some people just play the game the way they like to play, blizzard is simply trying to open the options a little, make it so you can raid in 10-mans or 25-mans without having huge disparities between them.

You can still raid the way you want to. In all honestly, the top guilds will most likely stick with 25-mans by your logic, because they already have 25 elite raiders; they have no slackers, they have no stupid people; why would they ever switch to 10-man? I mean, if they start 25-man, and a boss ends up being easier on 10-man, they can always switch, right? They have choice that you wouldn't have, 10-man guilds may get stuck with some bitch ass fights that are tough on 10-man, you can't really say whether it will be easier right now.

---------------

Oh, and here is some food for thought. It may be easier to find 10 smart players, but unlike a 25-man, more responsibility will be placed upon those 10 players compared to 25-mans, where the distribution of responsibility can be further divided amongst people. In other words, you have MORE people that CAN pick up slack in 25-mans than 10-mans; you have more shoulders to lean on.

What made sarth so hard is that you had less people in the 10-man to deal with the same amount of problems that were present in the 25-man, you had less shoulders that could keep you up. If blizzard is serious about throwing the same amount of problems at you in 10-mans as you get thrown in 25-mans, we will either be seeing some sarth-afided 10-mans, or some really dumbed down 25-mans.

[Many]

They also stated that they were trying to make 10-mans easier than 25-mans, amirite? Therefore making it harder was a BIG mistake by them.

For Cata, they are trying to make both them them equal, so making the 10-man harder than the 25-man will only be a minor mistake by them.



"I say 10-mans are more optimal!
Therefore all guild will raid 10-mans!"

Yeah, induction doesn't always work like that.

I get what you are saying, it's easier to find 9 smart people than it is to find 24 smart people.

But what I'm saying is not everyone plays this game to "Be the best!" or "Catch um all!" or just min/max. Some people just play the game the way they like to play, blizzard is simply trying to open the options a little, make it so you can raid in 10-mans or 25-mans without having huge disparities between them.

You can still raid the way you want to. In all honestly, the top guilds will most likely stick with 25-mans by your logic, because they already have 25 elite raiders; they have no slackers, they have no stupid people; why would they ever switch to 10-man? I mean, if they start 25-man, and a boss ends up being easier on 10-man, they can always switch, right? They have choice though, 10-man guilds may get stuck with some bitch ass fights that are tough on 10-man, you can't really say whether it will be easier right now.

---------------

Oh, and here is some food for thought. It may be easier to find 10 smart players, but unlike a 25-man, more responsibility will be placed upon those 10 players compared to 25-mans, where the distribution of responsibility can be further divided amongst people. In other words, you HAVE more people that CAN pick up slack in 25-mans than 10-mans; you have more shoulders to lean on.

What made sarth so hard is that you had less people to deal with the same amount of problems, less shoulders that could keep you up. If blizzard is serious about throwing the same amount of problems at you in 10-mans as you get thrown in 25-mans, we will either be seeing some sarth-afided 10-mans, or some really dumbed down 25-mans.

If you say there are ppl who played this game only for fun. Why ppl who want to be best. In gear, in progress etc. Why they have to suffer? And I ask again!! What is wrong on current system?? Tell me. Its becouse ppl in 25-man recieve better gear? No you just said. They play for fun, they play for content but what for they need best gear?

Edit: And one thing I dont have kingslayer title yet. Why? Becouse i am casual. I dont have time for it. But if I had time so I wanted to be the best. This is about feelings. And feel be differen epic. Is best motivation in this game... But no more..

[Mongoose19]

So they basicly incline that there will be no profit other than some lame badges for doing 25 man AND than 10 man might still be easier than 25. GG Blizz, whats next, solo raids?