Arms not a pve specc?

[Kysimir]

If you aren't running out when defile and valks are cast within seconds of each other you are risking doing way more harm than good and I challenge that on Val/Putricide/LK you probably do have a few instances where you need to charge every 15 seconds for a while.

Actually, this is only partially true, for Heroic at least.

You make a triangle on Valks with melee clumped on one spot/"foot", the ranged spread out away. During defile all melee merely shift to the other side of the valks while the melee with defile (if melee has defile) moves to the appropriate spot. So it creates a <---(defile)-- Valks --(melee)---> effect.

There is no spreading out before valks for melee, as doing so is a loss in much needed DPS. Also, Putricide/Val, you're usually charging/intercepting twice in <20s, and you have 30s or so of not needing it; not an even every 15s (or 20).

However, we're getting a little off topic.

[Deleted]

You basically agreed with me on both points, highlighting the extremes. Let me correct you on a few things:

I never said Arms is more frequently preferred than Fury, I said either can be preferred, depending on the situation. If Fury is capable of 20K DPS without using Death Wish on a given pull, then it is possible to do 25K as Arms. 20K means you most likely have at least 5 targets to kill. The more targets you have the bigger advantage Arms has. Cleave hits 3 targets glyphed, WW 5 targets, while Thunderclap is not limited to number of targets. I sustained 30K DPS on trash before Marrowgar as Arms. Many Warriors don't realize how powerful Thunderclap is with the current levels of gear. Yes, Fury overtook Arms in Ulduar25 HM gear, on AoE fights. ......Do you remember what happened then? Blizzard nerfed ArP and it wasn't possible to cap it as Fury anymore until early ICC, that's when Arms got pushed back up.

Yes, believe it or not there are people out there who raid 10men. The OP was specifically saying he was asked to respec in 10men ICC PUG. And yes, believe it or not PuGs don't always have group synergy. Even 10men guild HM runs don't always have the perfect group synergy, you simply don't have enough slots to fill. "Bring the player, not the class". Yes, Fury can provide Imp. Commanding Shout. Yes, most Fury Warriors don't spec for it. Commanding Presence is less significant than ever with 20% ICC buff and crazy health levels that even 10 men geared tanks have.

You say doing the same DPS as Fury and Arms on average is error on my part, I say you didn't try it yourself as of late / you have much better gear than me (meaning 25HM gear)/ you're not equally skilled in both Arms and Fury.

See how the last sentence agrees with everything I said in my post? Yes, in HM25 gear Fury does up to 4-5K DPS more on average run than Arms. Does that mean that Arms is lacking at Heroics/ToC25/ICC10/25 gear? No. Go check any of many sites available and see how many level 80 Warriors out there are in ICC25 HM. Less than 5% is an extremely generous guessimate.

The only situation where arms is prefered over fury is when you have 2 warriors, as in one to provide Rampage, no rogues and feral druids. Trauma is not worth losing a competent fury over.

Now let's play with your off DPS numbers. First I need to say that whirlwind only hits 4 targets, not 5. Thunderclap gets the AOE treatment, meaning it's damage caps out when it's spread over 10 targets. Thunderclap also has a 6 second cooldown. To sustain 30k DPS, let's assume you, as an arms warrior, did 15k sustained DPS from Bladestorm, Sweeping Strikes and personal cleaves, I think that's fairly accurate, on said ICC trash. Now, for thunderclap to make up for even five thousand damage per second, it needs to do 30k damage per cooldown. That's roughly 6 crits, or ~14 hits, I can see it happening but for any trashpull that ain't staged, fury wins, I'm afraid. Arms would need an 8mob pull orso where all are in range of Thunderclap to get ahead, that's assuming a 50% critrate, also infinite rage from incoming damage to sustain cleaving.

Fury overtook arms in Ulduar 25man gear even after the APR nerf, infact APR was nerfed quite early on, before the majority had even started on hardmodes. I know, because I was an arms warrior back then. I infact did quite good too, I obviously won't mention numbers because that's just tacky, but I scored me some records. Secondly, you could cap APR as fury during ToGC, but you'd lack some in the expertise department. Either way; Fury overtook arms during late Ulduar25, for a number of reasons. Also it's important to know the APR nerf hit arms harder than it hit fury, as fury couldn't cap it anyway, it was arms that could.

Yea, for 10mans I agree, you may miss 20% haste at which point fury is still better at high levels of gear. At lower levels of gear you most likely aren't aiming to kill stuff where this matters anyway and should play the spec you're comfortable in.

And if anything, I'm better at arms than I am at fury, but yep my gear is mostly ICC25 man heroic.

[GhostSkull]

"Yes, Arms is viable, but will it ever top fury..."

Never being until Cata hits and gives us something new to obsess over.

[Kysimir]

"Yes, Arms is viable, but will it ever top fury..."

Never being until Cata hits and gives us something new to obsess over.

Not likely, Arms was never really better than fury until WOTLK pre-to-mid-ulduar. Unless there was some period in the 'old days' that I wasn't around for.

I just don't see Arms becoming the bees knees for an entire expansion pack. :P

[klaps_05]

just on a side note - dont judge how good your dps is in pugs with pathetic people. its not a flame, just an advice, because when you group up with terribads its easy to come on top

[terrih91]

its my favourite title, what of it?

---------- Post added 06-21-2010 at 07:31 PM ----------

A fury warrior will pretty much always outdps an arms warr simply cus almost all the bosses need movement and movements affects arms simply cus of slam.

On paper arms should outdps fury on a static singletarget in BIS gear. But this will never happen ingame due to lagg, movement and gear, which affects arms alot more then fury.

Thats the truth of it

i tried a spec without slam as the filler and i tried HS as the filler it got me a bit more dps i just macroed it to mortal strike (in fury i macro it to bloodthirst) and it did better no rage probs whatsoever.

[GhostSkull]

"I just don't see Arms becoming the bees knees for an entire expansion pack."

It never will if recount is the only measure. However, the announced changes will bring near parity and a mechanism for making adjustments without significant changes.

[Kysimir]

"I just don't see Arms becoming the bees knees for an entire expansion pack."

It never will if recount is the only measure. However, the announced changes will bring near parity and a mechanism for making adjustments without significant changes.

Moot point.

We don't know anything yet, so let's just keep the speculation to a min, porfavor.

[GhostSkull]

"We don't know anything yet, so let's just keep the speculation to a min, porfavor."

Announced changes aren't speculative, they're planned and certainly open to discussion.

[Kysimir]

"We don't know anything yet, so let's just keep the speculation to a min, porfavor."

Announced changes aren't speculative, they're planned and certainly open to discussion.

You're talking about the Preview?

(1) There's a Preview thread for that.
(2) There are a whopping 3-5 announced changes per spec, not enough information to make educated discussions about how/what will be a rotation and how/what will scale, let alone which spec would be dominant/offer what utility/etc. Ergo, speculation.

[Blada]

As a hunter whenever I lead the odd pug I specifically ask for a arms warrior just because of their bad ass buffs.

[TheDrsour]

Well in my opinion Arms does very good dps in pve. Not to mention Bladestorm does massive damage but it has a cooldown. Fury is easier to play and in my opinion you look cooler with 2 two handeds .

But in my opinion play what you like and what you know best. Like for example when Arcane first came out with the 3% damage buff. Everyone was like omg! i gotta go arcane! and now you see fire mages destroying meters.

[suicuique]

Not likely, Arms was never really better than fury until WOTLK pre-to-mid-ulduar. Unless there was some period in the 'old days' that I wasn't around for.

Unless I remember wrong, Arms was better than fury in the *early* MC days ^^
In BWL, AQ, Naxx40, all of BC, Naxx25, and ToC+ Fury was on top with the only exception being early Ulduar, where fury was affected more than Arms by the nerf stick.

[Griefel]

You're talking about the Preview?
(2) There are a whopping 3-5 announced changes per spec, not enough information to make educated discussions about how/what will be a rotation and how/what will scale, let alone which spec would be dominant/offer what utility/etc. Ergo, speculation.

Rage normalization makes me put my money on Arms being equal to Fury a great deal of Cataclysm. And there is an educated discussion at EJ about what is out yet, with some of the info that is upheld from these forums.

[Finangus]

Most people that ignorantly say Arms isn't a PvE spec are assuming that there is only one way to spec Arms, and that is the PvP spec. Of course a PvP spec isn't meant for PvE; that's a no brainer. That's why there's a PvE Arms spec, which is highly different from the PvP Arms spec.

Now, if someone wants to argue whether or not the PvE Arms spec is viable for raiding, that's a different matter entirely. However, the answer is still yes; PvE Arms is viable. I stress viable because viable isn't the same thing as optimal. Fury is still the optimal DPS spec due to the way it scales insanely well as your gear improves. Arms' raid contribution in later content only outstrips Fury's in very specific situations/raid compositions. That's not to say you can't raid or provide adequate DPS as Arms; it just means you will usually provide more to your raid as Fury.

I've raided extensively as Arms, Fury, and Prot, and I enjoy all 3 specs. Honestly, I'd love it if the DPS/raid contribution difference between Fury and Arms was negligible. Unfortunately, that's not how things currently are. Hopefully that will change in Cataclysm.

[GephetVLK]

I'd just say it's a raid comp thing.. DPS vs Raid Buffs same as MM vs Survival hunters. Still pretty stupid though being rejected because you're Arms.