[Blue] Epics will be epic again in Cataclysm!

[Mith]

This.

It's nothing more than a pandering. The system of being able to get epics without a raid has been in place since, oh... Vanilla. It was refined in TBC with the emblem system, and refined further in WotLK. Cataclysm is refining it again but changing the currency.

Unless they never put any epic gear on vendors, that sell items you can buy with currency from heroics, you will be able to get at least some raid-quality epic gear without ever going into a raid.

This is a calculated decision on Blizzard's part, and will not be changing. You will not be seeing a TBC, or even Vanilla, gear progression ever again.

Are you refering to dungeon set 2? pvp epics? or those random drops like gandlings staff/felstriker/chromatic carapace etc.?

[Brittany]

This is the #1 issue that I have with people who dislike the current raiding system. Why do you care so much what other people get? You guys really just need to play the game for yourselves and you'll enjoy it a lot more and once you can see past the bias you have toward other people obtaining the same gear you do you'll see how much better this system is than it was in BC. There's really just no comparison at all.

There are genuinely people like that yes.

But I'm not. I don't care what you have or don't have. You have the same item as me, good for you. Did you earn it the same way? Well if I got it via banging my head against a brick wall for a week, and you got it with a 25% buff and 2 nerfs in a 10 minute PUG run, probably not. I don't care about that.

All i ask is what is my motivation to get it done the way I do? Besides for challenge, what motivation is there for high end raiding when we can all take a month off after an instance is released and then go and one shot every hard mode because it's been nerfed and players have been buffed to the point it's a different encounter.

The firefighter I beat, and the firefighter you beat. Wasn't the same fight. You'd most likely still be wiping on it now if it was. I don't care about the gear you got from it, I care that people view our achievement as the same, when really it's completely different what we did.

[Kawwah]

Then they should totally remove badges from heroics, and only make them accessible through raids.
I think this is very very nice news, and I hope it can bring back that feeling of having something to work for.

[Deleted]

Then they should totally remove badges from heroics, and only make them accessible through raids.
I think this is very very nice news, and I hope it can bring back that feeling of having something to work for.

They are not removing it.

[Mistress Elizabeth]

Snowblind... I've seen that name before...... yes attached to something with no shirt! O_O

Anyway.... what I don't get is people that don't like the "shortcut" instances like Icecrown Citadel 5mans. The instances are all awesome, and I doubt anyone would want them removed, but the people that hate on the "Oh, they can get decent gear in there"... what would you do to "fix" this problem?

Would you decrease the quality of the gear dropped? Then why would people do those instances if the gear is of the same quality as the items dropped in other places?

"Oh but you don't do 5 mans to get gear! You should enjoy playing instead!"

Well erm.... why do you need gear in raids again? Why don't you just enjoy playing as well?

Sure you could say the next raid will require better gear in order to play in it, but wouldn't a possible future 5 man also require better gear?


That also brings me to another thing, I'd love if on Cata, they again do what they did this time around, that they release a 5 man along with the new raid, so that you get geared up from THAT 5man, not from the normal heroics that will just get easier and easier the more gear you got.

[Frozenbeef]

I don't understand why these so called "raiders" want casual and soloplayers to suffer so much...it just doesn't make any sense >.<

[Canbie]

It's not going make a big difference after the first 2 months of Cata.

Raids will still be casual friendly. So after heroics are on farm, things will be back to the way they are now.

[TheMorty]

This is great! Hopefully, this will really take us back to the old times. Atleast some part of it.

[Mistress Elizabeth]

There are genuinely people like that yes.

But I'm not. I don't care what you have or don't have. You have the same item as me, good for you. Did you earn it the same way? Well if I got it via banging my head against a brick wall for a week, and you got it with a 25% buff and 2 nerfs in a 10 minute PUG run, probably not. I don't care about that.

All i ask is what is my motivation to get it done the way I do? Besides for challenge, what motivation is there for high end raiding when we can all take a month off after an instance is released and then go and one shot every hard mode because it's been nerfed and players have been buffed to the point it's a different encounter.

The firefighter I beat, and the firefighter you beat. Wasn't the same fight. You'd most likely still be wiping on it now if it was. I don't care about the gear you got from it, I care that people view our achievement as the same, when really it's completely different what we did.

What is a rich guy's motivation to buy a Ferrari this year and not wait for next year's model?

What's a politician's motivation to lead a country this period and not in the next period, when you can leech of someone's else work and claim it as yours?

What's a parent's motivation to buy his child a DS, when next year he could instead buy him a 3DS?

the questions could probably go on.

[sicness]

There are genuinely people like that yes.

But I'm not. I don't care what you have or don't have. You have the same item as me, good for you. Did you earn it the same way? Well if I got it via banging my head against a brick wall for a week, and you got it with a 25% buff and 2 nerfs in a 10 minute PUG run, probably not. I don't care about that.

All i ask is what is my motivation to get it done the way I do? Besides for challenge, what motivation is there for high end raiding when we can all take a month off after an instance is released and then go and one shot every hard mode because it's been nerfed and players have been buffed to the point it's a different encounter.

The firefighter I beat, and the firefighter you beat. Wasn't the same fight. You'd most likely still be wiping on it now if it was. I don't care about the gear you got from it, I care that people view our achievement as the same, when really it's completely different what we did.

Firstly, don't assume you're 'higher on the totem pole' in terms of progression than I am. From my point of view, players at the highest level don't give a shit about that because they know what they did. They know they did Firefighter before the nerf. They know they did LK at 10% and not 25%, and they don't care what anyone else thinks. It's the random few who want more recognition, but at the moment the majority of these players don't have an issue at all with needing more of it. They don't need someone else to recognize what they've accomplished in game because they know it already and have the players they play with who also recognize it and don't need people who 'didn't do it on their level' to know about it to feel good about themselves.

It's not just from players I play with and talk to but it's pretty obvious when it's only a random few players on this site for instance who complain about it that you know it's a minority. If it were really such a big deal to the majority of the high end players they'd let it be known.

You ask what is your motivation for doing high end raids then. It should be to get them done before majority of raiders can and knowing that you did server/world first. It should be the accomplishment that you feel with the players you play with once you finally get the encounters down. And yes it should also be that epics that only a few in the world will actually see, let alone possess. There's plenty to motivate high end players, including the recognition that they all give each other on who is the world/server best. So I don't understand why you need anything more than that, especially from players who could give a shit about when you did Firefighter.

[Brittany]

I don't understand why these so called "raiders" want casual and soloplayers to suffer so much...it just doesn't make any sense >.<

Some do. I think thats just harsh.

But there needs to be a reward for the high end player no? Its like they've fed us on ice cream for 10 years, and we've grown used to it, and we like Ice cream. They adopt another kid and now they feed us carrots because it's the new kids favourites.

Lets say you go do Ulduar heroic. Full run including Yogg +0.

You walk around with the achievment, you walk around saying I'm pro, i did ulduar heroic.

The Ulduar you did (easy), the Ulduar I did (harder), and the Ulduar that Ensidia did (without tactics, crazy) are all completely different instances. Yet the reward is the same. Is that right?

[xnickybx]

It's not the fault of the "elitists" that you didn't get to see sunwell. If you were good, or if you were committed or if you tried, you could have too.

This game used to reward skill and it used to reward dedication. Now it says "go work hard like you used to do" to people like us and "here you go xnickybx, here's some T10 shoulders for your 2 hour PUG run!" to people like you.

I've only ever pugger voa, nice try though. I only do 10 mans with my small guild. BC we only did Kara and ZA since we can only get 10 people. Vanilla we only did ubrs and 5 mans and got some pugs for ZG. I've been happy every era of wow, I don't give a shit about gear, I just want shit to do with my guild. And I really like the idea of 10 man raids so I know what the fuck is goin on. Vanilla and BC I had no idea about the main plot. Skill wise, I pugged for a raiding guild in ZG and beat the shit out of every rogue save one in all blues while they were in tier 1 epics. They wanted me to do other raids with them but they weren't my guild so I declined. I however lack the dedication to this game and that's why I never saw sun well and I'm not complaining but a large chunk of the players would and should since it's so important to the story of BC and I try to stick up for them on forums.

So way to assume, you wear your douche bag title well.

[Mistress Elizabeth]

It's not going make a big difference after the first 2 months of Cata.

Raids will still be casual friendly. So after heroics are on farm, things will be back to the way they are now.

Exactly.

First weeks of WoTLK.

"OMG YOU ARE IN FULL 173 GREEN GEAR OMG!! I NEED YOU IN MY RAID!"

A few weeks later

"Sorry, I need people in full blue gear to do Naxx. At least."

Then a few weeks more

"If you don't have at least half epics you cant do Naxx"

Then just before Ulduar patch

"If you dont have epics in all yours slots, you cant do Naxx."

[Spl4sh3r]

Still when next raid tier comes out the epics will not be epics again. Unless they restore the raid progression completely as in TBC/Vanilla that you have to raid through each tier to have a chance on the next

[snowblind]

The firefighter I beat, and the firefighter you beat. Wasn't the same fight. You'd most likely still be wiping on it now if it was. I don't care about the gear you got from it, I care that people view our achievement as the same, when really it's completely different what we did.

How, pray tell, would you fix this? Leave fights in near-unbeatable states to make sure your ego gets its hourly stroking throughout an expansion? Make all loot dropped from bosses automatically degrade in quality as they progress? Not fix bugs that make some encounters impossible? Take achievements out after a certain time?

Your issue is impossible to solve, because your issue is a personal one. You feel somehow slighted by other people's achievements versus yours. That isn't Blizzard's problem.

[Mistress Elizabeth]

Still when next raid tier comes out the epics will not be epics again. Unless they restore the raid progression completely as in TBC/Vanilla that you have to raid through each tier to have a chance on the next

And I doubt Blizzard would go back to those again, they moved away from them for a reason.

[Brittany]

How, pray tell, would you fix this? Leave fights in near-unbeatable states to make sure your ego gets its hourly stroking throughout an expansion? Make all loot dropped from bosses automatically degrade in quality as they progress? Not fix bugs that make some encounters impossible? Take achievements out after a certain time?

Your issue is impossible to solve, because your issue is a personal one. You feel somehow slighted by other people's achievements versus yours. That isn't Blizzard's problem.

I would fix it so that the fight wasn't nerfed, the hard mode stays hard, the normal mode is how the majority of players do it and that anyone who has that achievement deserved it.

Thats what the point of hardmode was wasn't it? To be hard? They aren't much different than normal modes, and if they are hard they are nerfed within a week.

I read that "WE WANT ALL PLAYERS TO SEE THE CONTENT SO NORMAL MODE WILL BE FOR THEM. IF YOU LIKE A CHALLENGE, HEROIC MODE IS FOR YOU". Now it seems they want all players to do the heroic mode too.

[sicness]

And I doubt Blizzard would go back to those again, they moved away from them for a reason.

They won't, and for good reason, the current system works much better than it did in BC. Anyone who raided in BC in a serious raiding guild would know that. The current system puts the initial gearing work into the players hands and not into the guilds hands, preventing guilds from having to do old content and allowing players of all skill levels and play times to obtain the second best tier of gear.

[Xykotic]

Just make sure badges dont let you get top tier sets.

[sicness]

I would fix it so that the fight wasn't nerfed, the hard mode stays hard, the normal mode is how the majority of players do it and that anyone who has that achievement deserved it.

Thats what the point of hardmode was wasn't it? To be hard? They aren't much different than normal modes, and if they are hard they are nerfed within a week.

I read that "WE WANT ALL PLAYERS TO SEE THE CONTENT SO NORMAL MODE WILL BE FOR THEM. IF YOU LIKE A CHALLENGE, HEROIC MODE IS FOR YOU". Now it seems they want all players to do the heroic mode too.

And what is wrong with more players seeing the hard modes? The system in ICC is most likely how they'll continue to implement content. With a stacking buff that allows 'lesser' guilds to see some of the harder content. There's absolutely nothing wrong with more people seeing the old content, especially when it involves a buff like in ICC instead of straight up nerfs.