Protection Pally T10 4pc Q

[Achtland]

Quote of the day:

The 4pc prot pally t4 bonus sucks.

Please discuss and tell me, is this true? Conversely I've also been told warrior tier ten bonus's suck as well and there are better drops off ICC bosses. I'm in the process of finding a pally BiS list but I'm also lead to believe that gear sets for tanks are encounter dependant. This is the same problem I have with all melee classes. I really can't contribute anything outworldly intelligent to such coversations about gear because melee classes of any type and I don't see eye to eye.

Help would be appreciated

[Kayvas]

the "problem" with the bonus is that is based on RNG so not a reliable cooldown, unlike the bonuses of other tanking classes wich are a % of damage reduction or absorb. so its nice to have but is not somthing you can rely on. BTW it all depends on what your BiS list is made. at 264 ilvl Imho crafted legs, emblem of frost chest+hand are superior to tier, and tier head+shoulders if you want the 2pc bonus otherwise use gunship shoulders, at 277 is different because tier head/gloves/chest are BiS so is a personal choice to use the tier shoulder for the bonus or Gunship 277 shoulders for more EH.

tl;dr at 264 is not worth because there are better offsets, at 277 is bonus vs 18 stamina making it more desiderable

[Nillo]

The bonus is... ok, but unless you can get 4p of 277 set gear the offset pieces are just much better than your tier items and the 4p won't make up for the difference.

[Cardolan]

It's pretty unreliable, but it's getting considerably better as the Icecrown Citadel buff increases. You don't need the extra stamina that the non set pieces have when your maximum health is being increased by 25%, so if you can get the 4T10 bonus using 264 pieces and the crafted legs while maintaining at least 540 defense, you should do it.

If you already have the non set pieces, it's probably not worth switching. If you're only starting to gear up, you may as well go for the tier pieces if you'll be able to upgrade them to 264 quickly.

[Gaffer]

I'm not a huge fan of on use dodge effects, especially when it requires a global. It always felt like we got the short end of the stick compared to the damage reducers given to the other three classes that is off the GCD.

That said, at equal item levels, you'll still want to consider 4pc. However, considering how the 277 shoulders and chest drop from bosses that can be killed by guilds that are unable to down normal Lich King, it's a pretty small period that you'll actually get use out of it until 277. I'd suggest wearing 2pc 277 tier (choose from Chest, Helm, or Gloves) and passing the other tokens to other classes / specs.

[Achtland]

Okay now let me throw in a kink...lets say the pally in question wont be getting 277 gear any time soon. Does that make a difference to any of this? I see lots of heroic gear being thrown around but with if the pally just wont get 277 gear? Say he's in a ten man guild =P

[Gaffer]

Then it will depend on whether or not you have access to 264 tokens via heroic modes and what 264 heroic items you have access to. The same equal item level rule applies at 264 / 251 item levels. If you're going to be stuck with 251 set pieces but can acquire some 264 pieces (via emblems or some of the easier heroics), you'll likely want to skip four piece. If you can get four 264 tokens to upgrade your tier pieces, then you should go that route.

[Frumpy Frumpy Frak]

Okay now let me throw in a kink...lets say the pally in question wont be getting 277 gear any time soon. Does that make a difference to any of this? I see lots of heroic gear being thrown around but with if the pally just wont get 277 gear? Say he's in a ten man guild =P

Use the badge gear and crafted items, get the 2 piece bonus from head and shoulder pieces.

[Achtland]

So you're saying badge gear and crafted items are better then 4pc t10 set bonus? Assuming the pally is in a ten man guild and doesn't run 25man ICC

[Gaffer]

If I was unable to acquire the 264 tokens needed to upgrade your tier pieces, I would choose the higher item level badge and crafted items.

[Lightfist]

Opinions vary. However, that doesn't matter, because 90% of the WoW population (including tanks) are pants-on-head retarded.

So, the only thing I will say to way in this decision is that if you decide to pick up half off-set half tier gear, you will look utterly retarded for the rest of the expansion and you will feel sad.

No, that has nothing to do with the stats. No, it probably won't way your opinion. But no one here can tell me I'm wrong =/

[Nillo]

So, the only thing I will say to way in this decision is that if you decide to pick up half off-set half tier gear, you will look utterly retarded for the rest of the expansion and you will feel sad.

What the fuck are you talking about?


And I'll say it again if you can't get at least 3 277 tokens the badges and craftable offset items will be so much better than the set pieces, that you don't want to use the 4p.

If I was unable to acquire the 264 tokens needed to upgrade your tier pieces, I would choose the higher item level badge and crafted items.

Even if you can aquire 264 tokens the offset items will be a lot better !_!

[Cardolan]

What the fuck are you talking about?
Even if you can aquire 264 tokens the offset items will be a lot better !_!

In the fights where melee damage is a concern for tanks (most of them), the 264 offset items are below the 264 T10 pieces (provided you use the crafted legs with both sets). The trade off in stamina is meaningless when we have a 25% health buff, and every tank that is even remotely geared for the Icecrown Citadel content they want/need to do has more than enough health to do it. For certain fights - primarily Sindragosa, and only really on heroic - the 264 items come off on top, because melee damage isn't the major concern.

A lot better? No, not at all, and not at any point in the content that currently exists.

[Zeyn]

The 2pc using head and shoulders has served me well, as I have yet to find a guild for heroic modes. Since those two pieces are the most visible, it actually matches. Combined with frost cloak I look a lot like Link, considering I'm blood elf.

When deciding if you want to get 4 piece tier sets, you have to ask yourself two questions. First, are the stats on each individual piece better than other gear I could use in that slot? Second, is the set bonus good for my play style, and is it enough to offset any stats I'm losing by not getting other gear? For most pallies, the answer to both is NO. Gear you can buy with frost badges or get crafted is as good or better than the 264 ilevel, and doesn't waste a token. And by the time you can get 277 you will have the option for better drops.

So is the set bonus worth it? 20% dodge is a lot, but you have to take it into context. How often does dodge help you? Remember, dodge ONLY applies to melee, NOT magic damage. So for the cooldown to be useful, it would have to be on a fight where massive melee damage could possibly kill you.

What are the highest damage abilities on icc fights? Marrowgar: magic. Deathwisper: magic. Gunship: lol. Saurfang: frenzy. Festergut: 3rd inhale. Rotface: slimes/magic. Putricide: slime/magic/healer death. Blood princes: magic. Blood queen: melee/magic/mind control. Dreamwalker: lol again. Sindragosa: frost breath. Lich King: Melee if tanking shambling horror, otherwise magic especially soul reaper.

So really, there are two fights that make good use out of dodge on a cooldown. The whole point is to save it until you need to reduce a lot of damage, but on most fights melee is constant and relatively static. Having 20% dodge every minute reduces some damage, but nothing really threatening. All you are doing is making it so your healers don't have to use as big of heals... which is a moot point if you know about any healer's strategy at this stage of the game. Obviously, it is nice to have another cooldown for fester (especially on heroic) but changing out two pieces of superior gear is kind of a waste of time.

One last thing. The difference between a cooldown that increases your dodge value and a cooldown that reduces damage taken by a % is like comparing apples to snakes. The druid's tier 10 bonus (reducing damage taken by 12%) will help them survive a frost breath, or a soul reaper. A paladin's tier 10 is useless.

[MestHoop]

In the fights where melee damage is a concern for tanks (most of them), the 264 offset items are below the 264 T10 pieces (provided you use the crafted legs with both sets). The trade off in stamina is meaningless when we have a 25% health buff, and every tank that is even remotely geared for the Icecrown Citadel content they want/need to do has more than enough health to do it. For certain fights - primarily Sindragosa, and only really on heroic - the 264 items come off on top, because melee damage isn't the major concern.

A lot better? No, not at all, and not at any point in the content that currently exists.

Ehm dude... I think you got your facts wrong.
There are not a lot of fights where physical damage is a problem on the tank. The flow of the damage is often smooth and predictable.
The times when it DOES matter it's announced and people can prepare for it (fester 3 stacks, LK soul reaper, etc.).
The only exception to this one IS sindragosa on heroic because she hits like 5 trucks and also has parry haste enabled. The frost breath shouldn't be a problem if you just use a proper tank rotation. Off-spec items are best here, but not because of the reason you posted.

The cooldown you gain from 4p is VERY situational at that. When you dip low then more dodge wont help you much as you can still take the next hit. If you have a shield wall effect you want that instead because you KNOW the next blow will be softened. Preventing to get to points where you feel you need to use a cooldown here is more important than getting an extra cooldown which in turn is RNG based.

Like any good tank however you should have several sets of gear to begin with. I personally never used the 4p till I hit heroic modes and only on fights where I know I'm gonna need chain cooldowns (Deathbringer, Festergut). In pretty much every other fight the off-pieces win (until you hit 4 piece 277 like mentioned before).

[xebtria]

IMHO the chest + head are the items of choice...

Chest:
badge: defense/expertise, 3 sockets, 207 stam
T10: Dodge/Parry, 2 sockets, 219 stam

shoulders:
gunship: def dodge parry, 2 sockets, 157 stam
T10: def dodge parry, 1 socket, 169 stam
(considering 264 T10, of course)

so both combinations will give 4 sockets and the same amount of stamina, the difference is the expertise/def vs the dodge/parry from the chest.

=> threat should not be the problem, if it is on that level of gear, the expertise from the badge chest won't make a real difference.
=> the dodge+parry from the tier is more avoidance then the def from the badge.
=> same stamina in both combinations.

therefore tier chest and gunship shoulders = better. Well, If you have the badges for the badge chest as well, go get it for your aggro/5man/10man-normal gear. But otherwise - mostly for HC - the Tier chest is better.

proove me wrong


and for terms of 4pc-T10 - at first with 4 277 pieces. but anyways, the 264 craft legs are most likely superior than the T10 277 (due to the armor). So we end up as well with head + gloves + chest T10 277 and crafting legs + Gunship HC shoulders + T10. Maybe (too lazy to check) are the Kraken Gloves even better than T10 - because T10 has hit and kraken have 2 defensive stats.

the problem with the 4pc is - as already mentioned - RNG. it's basically 2% dodge if you use it on cooldown. But when you compare it to DK and druid (12% less dmg aka migitaion) and warrior (12% of the dmg blocked - also migitation), then it's pretty weak, because ... well, can't say it often enough - RNG.
you can activate it and for the time of the duration take every single hit. then you blew it just in the air with zero effort. nothing worth I'd aim for.

[MestHoop]

proove me wrong

Largely correct, however there are a few things that need to be taken into account:
Defense cap. Most people use the crafted boots which sport no defense. Pillars don't have any either and neither does the tier chest.
This puts people into the position of having to drop one of these items which in most cases would be the chest (as you trade off some avoidance for some expertise).
Also the tier chest alone throws dodges off the table for paladins (10 from chest + 10 from glyph + 6 from talents) which in the long run shouldn't be a problem, however it can get nasty with adds (think raging spirits... Missing 2 of your hard hitters there often results in dead DPS... And telling people not to DS, WW, etc... well you know how they are).

TPS isn't a problem, you should have more than your DPS and if they do have more due to cooldowns you salv them. However the first few seconds are still key. You're still stacking up SoV and a miss here can have dire consequences.
Also don't give the MD story because hunters and rogues can also die, be slacking, got it on cooldown because of the other tank missing 2 hits in a row...

I'm not saying that every tank should gem for hit and exp cap. Not at all. Just saying that these are things that can be important and should not be neglected.

[Achtland]

The 2pc using head and shoulders has served me well, as I have yet to find a guild for heroic modes. Since those two pieces are the most visible, it actually matches. Combined with frost cloak I look a lot like Link, considering I'm blood elf.

When deciding if you want to get 4 piece tier sets, you have to ask yourself two questions. First, are the stats on each individual piece better than other gear I could use in that slot? Second, is the set bonus good for my play style, and is it enough to offset any stats I'm losing by not getting other gear? For most pallies, the answer to both is NO. Gear you can buy with frost badges or get crafted is as good or better than the 264 ilevel, and doesn't waste a token. And by the time you can get 277 you will have the option for better drops.

So is the set bonus worth it? 20% dodge is a lot, but you have to take it into context. How often does dodge help you? Remember, dodge ONLY applies to melee, NOT magic damage. So for the cooldown to be useful, it would have to be on a fight where massive melee damage could possibly kill you.

What are the highest damage abilities on icc fights? Marrowgar: magic. Deathwisper: magic. Gunship: lol. Saurfang: frenzy. Festergut: 3rd inhale. Rotface: slimes/magic. Putricide: slime/magic/healer death. Blood princes: magic. Blood queen: melee/magic/mind control. Dreamwalker: lol again. Sindragosa: frost breath. Lich King: Melee if tanking shambling horror, otherwise magic especially soul reaper.

So really, there are two fights that make good use out of dodge on a cooldown. The whole point is to save it until you need to reduce a lot of damage, but on most fights melee is constant and relatively static. Having 20% dodge every minute reduces some damage, but nothing really threatening. All you are doing is making it so your healers don't have to use as big of heals... which is a moot point if you know about any healer's strategy at this stage of the game. Obviously, it is nice to have another cooldown for fester (especially on heroic) but changing out two pieces of superior gear is kind of a waste of time.

One last thing. The difference between a cooldown that increases your dodge value and a cooldown that reduces damage taken by a % is like comparing apples to snakes. The druid's tier 10 bonus (reducing damage taken by 12%) will help them survive a frost breath, or a soul reaper. A paladin's tier 10 is useless.

Since no one really disputed you I'm going to say this, that was probably the most helpful post in here. I don't play a melee of any type as should have been clear in my first post. In terms of understanding how the bonus is useful versus pieces of other gear was well put. We do have access to tokens via hard modes and it was my fault for not clarifying that fact. Thank you very very much. ^^

[Gaffer]

What you should have picked up from this thread is that everyone has a different opinion on the subject. And definitely don't take what Zeyn said as gospel. All you can do is take these opinions and make your own judgements. To help a bit with the comparison, here are some relevant item compares for you:

4pc 277 Tier vs my current 2pc 277 Tier with offpieces
Same as above with 277 pieces replaced with 264
4pc 264 Tier vs Zeyn's suggested 2pc 264 with offpieces

The differences at 277 and 264 are very similar, but even though Zeyn has told you that you should never consider four piece, there are very notable Paladins (nearly every top tanked one) who have elected to wear the four piece tier. I'm not saying you should ignore what he has said; just that you should make the decision on your own. For me, it was our abysmal Conq token drops (39 Vanq, 17 Prot, 14 Conq) and the value of me wearing 277 tier versus the other classes and specs have it.

[Fredzilla]

Most of it comes do to personal preference in my opinion. The extra cooldown isn't fantastic or anything, but it's not bad, considering there's melee damage on every fight (unless you're tanking keleseth on princes). I personally use the 4 piece in my tanking set, but I've seen people who don't. At this point, with the 25% buff it doesn't make a significant difference, since you'' have a ridiculous amount of health compared to when this choice mattered more.