An Open Letter

[Lebored]

Fortunately I can say the same to you. I am very sure that the vast majority of whiny little kids who can't achieve anything but suddenly it's okay because Blizzard are handing shit out for free are extremely happy. Ecstatic even.

Oh, and there have been no posts from Blizzard since December 2008 regarding subscription numbers, despite regular posts before hand at every million milestone. Maybe it's a summer slow down, a pre cataclysm slow down, or maybe the market is just saturated. But I bet you can't link me anything to prove any growth since WotLK was initially released. So pipe down until you can find that non-existent proof.

You can berate them all you want, chest thump about all your WoW achievements all you want. Simple fact is they outnumber you so their opinion on whats fun in this game out weights yours.
The only ones whining are people like you throwing tantrums because WoW changed to fit the needs of its overall player base instead of it being your own personal scoreboard.

[Tarien]

In FFXI you lose half level when you die, you can't level past ~10 without being grouped because all random mobs will wipe the floor with you, and there's still one boss that hasn't been killed in over three years without exploiting it. Best tries so far were around 18 hours, not the candlyland 18 minutes we have. WoW is the Hello Kitty Island Adventure of MMO's and always has been.

Sure, let's go to extremes. In EVE Online you can be killed, defrauded, robbed and god knows what else, you can lose the work of weeks, months or the set backs can take away years of work. But I am not talking about those MMOs, and frankly even if I were I don't see them pulling in 11.5mil subscribers as you so kindly pointed out.

I am talking about this game. It can be and has been challenging, and if you believe differently you probably gave up raiding long ago and hard modes are merely things you pretend to know about while you shoot your mouth off on forums.

[Shadowysaint]

I disagree with everything you said.

Removed most of your quote to save thread space, but i agree with snowblind.

[Tarien]

You can berate them all you want, chest thump about all your WoW achievements all you want. Simple fact is they outnumber you so their opinion on whats fun in this game out weights yours.
The only ones whining are people like you throwing tantrums because WoW changed to fit the needs of its overall player base instead of it being your own personal scoreboard.

In kindergarden the children outnumber you. They all want cake, icecream and to paint their clothes with non-waterbased paints. Are you going to give them what they want because they outnumber you?

Sure there are a lot of people who enjoy this easy mode thing we have going on, but there are a lot of adults out there who like a challenge so forgive me for standing up to the class and arguing for something a little more entertaining (from my perspective).

[Lebored]

EDIT: Poster above me found the one link I know of, and oh look, no growth.

You mean oh look, no falling numbers.
Those numbers only mean that people are just as happy with WotLK as they are with TBC.

Its funny how two different people get two different things out of the same stats

[Zeta333]

I disagree with everything you said.

Having any thought that Hyjal is going to be "rehashed" is pretty fuckin' dumb since the Hyjal we've been able to go to was a raid instance that took place in the past. What part of that would possibly be re-hashed?

Attunements are stupid. They don't serve the purpose that you think they do, and only serve to cockblock guilds from finding new members.

The quest hubs are fine. In fact, I don't recall a single hub with 1-2 quests in it, outside of Dragonblight and the various flights. Calling those hubs is a bit of a misnomer.

The mystery and wonder you had at the beginning of the game can never come back, because you will never be new to the game again. Asking for Blizzard to pull an Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind on you just so you can feel like a kid in a candy shop again is a bit much.

Blaming Blizzard for fail pugs is stupid.

You claim that the player base is selfish, yet this "open letter" reeks of that very same stink. You want Blizzard to cater to you and the small, but exceedingly whiny and vocal, minority.

If you and your ilk would pause and think critically for 5 minutes about why content seems easier now, maybe you'd understand that it's unavoidable.

- Better gear for everybody. This has nothing to do with the ease of attaining said gear - but how gear has progressed. Look at tier 1 and 2 for any given class. Look at all the wasted stats, all the mis-spent item budget. Look at tier 4-6 - getting better, still some wasted stats. Now look at tier 7-10. Wasted stats are all but gone.
- Acceleration of information. All but the top .1% of guilds don't start beating new content until the top .1% does it first, and posts their strats. Raid success is a quick YouTube video assimilation away.
- Better addons. Grid. Clique. Healbot. DBM and its ilk.
- Better players. The current zeitgeist would have you believe that most players right now are "bads". By today's standards, this might be true... but a very large portion of players have been playing this game for at least 2 years now, if not 3 or 4. A lot of the bleeding edge raiding guilds have either been raiding together for a very long time, or have at least had individual members raiding for a very long time.

Of course, this will all fall on deaf ears at best, or get ripped to shreds by self-proclaimed "elitists" who, of course, are 12/12 HM ICC right now and have been for "months".

You say hes asking wow to catter to him? My question is why shouldnt it? People that put the time and dedication into the game to research their class, to theorycraft, to spent time working out their gear and how to maximize their potential? Why should we want people who log on, dont know shit about their class or the encounter or what gear they should use getting to go into a raid and WTFPWN boss's that we as a hardcore community worked for hours girnding out at night to kill? Yeh it sucks if you have a job that interfeers, or kids or a wife but thats the breaks. You dont get shit IRL handed to you if you have to much going on why should it happen in game? There are late night guilds, there are mid day guilds for people that have odd shit going on, dont QQ how you cant find a guild to meet you.

[vesseblah]

Sure, let's go to extremes. In EVE Online you can be killed, defrauded, robbed and god knows what else, you can lose the work of weeks, months or the set backs can take away years of work. But I am not talking about those MMOs, and frankly even if I were I don't see them pulling in 11.5mil subscribers as you so kindly pointed out.

Point remains. On grand scale of things WoW is easy game. Don't try to glorify old stuff.

I am talking about this game. It can be and has been challenging, and if you believe differently you probably gave up raiding long ago and hard modes are merely things you pretend to know about while you shoot your mouth off on forums.

And what the hell hardmodes has got to do with what you whined about Nax and SWP being hard? Absolutely nothing. There were no hardmodes for those instances. There was only "grind your ass off" mode.

It's also completely besides the point, but I'm currently still raiding, wiping on LK25heroic... Wouldn't have died with 20% but will probably drop now with 25% buff. Hardest part about it is the summer attendance and new expansion blues, not the fight itself with the current buff.

[Tarien]

You mean oh look, no falling numbers.
Those numbers only mean that people are just as happy with WotLK as they are with TBC.

Its funny how two different people get two different things out of the same stats

Explain to me how an MMO that's been gaining between 1 and 2 million subs a year stops growing?

Even if I agree with you and we say sure, that the constant number of subscibers means that everyone is as happy with WoW as they have ever been, I know from talking to other raiders that there is a real feeling that content has been dumbed down too far. And its not about epeen waving or nostalgia, these people just want more of a challenge from their game, they enjoyed the feeling of success when it came with a higher price. Does it not make sense that you get a better feeling of achievement and success from downing a boss that has taken a week or more to beat, than a boss you take down in a single night, or even one shot?

[Lebored]

In kindergarden the children outnumber you. They all want cake, icecream and to paint their clothes with non-waterbased paints. Are you going to give them what they want because they outnumber you?

Sure there are a lot of people who enjoy this easy mode thing we have going on, but there are a lot of adults out there who like a challenge so forgive me for standing up to the class and arguing for something a little more entertaining (from my perspective).

This isn't kindergarten no matter how much people act like it here.
You are not my teacher, nor are you anyones teacher, you do not get to decide whats best for everyone else. Since we are all of age enough to make our decisions we can do so, as a group. Your side lost get over it.

Heres a better example, in said kindergarten its snack time the class decides to have ice cream, you throw a temper tantrum because you wanted cookies, call everyone stupid who prefers ice cream over cookies and accuse them of being weak because they like soft desserts.

If this travesty of a game has become to simple minded for you feel free to find one better suited to your individual tastes.

[jonfauscett]

I agree with a bit of what you say, but I also feel that the older content should be a requirement for the newer content. I think that the TBC attunements were great, but they could have been better if they had made them account wide instead of requiring them for each character.

I also think that giving any buffs for the older content will land us in the same spot we are in now. WOLK was done right up to ToC, when Ulduar was the big thing WOLK was at it's peak. The current emblem system is horrendous and IMHO, we should still be getting emblems of heroism for our 5 mans making a glass ceiling for the up and coming raider. Then again, I only have 1 character that I raid with.

[Lebored]

Explain to me how an MMO that's been gaining between 1 and 2 million subs a year stops growing?

Even if I agree with you and we say sure, that the constant number of subscibers means that everyone is as happy with WoW as they have ever been, I know from talking to other raiders that there is a real feeling that content has been dumbed down too far. And its not about epeen waving or nostalgia, these people just want more of a challenge from their game, they enjoyed the feeling of success when it came with a higher price. Does it not make sense that you get a better feeling of achievement and success from downing a boss that has taken a week or more to beat, than a boss you take down in a single night, or even one shot?

Seems simple enough, the game shed 1-2 million of its disenfranchised members and filled it in with more interested parties. Most likely the "epeen waving over nostalgiad" minority that left because the game isn't what they like anymore.

No it doesn't make sense that you get a better feeling of achievement and success from downing a boss in a game. The same reason I don't get a sense of achievement or success for watching a TV show.
I play this game for enjoyment not as a method to work through my self esteem issues.

[fapjackmasta]

I disagree with everything you said.

Having any thought that Hyjal is going to be "rehashed" is pretty fuckin' dumb since the Hyjal we've been able to go to was a raid instance that took place in the past. What part of that would possibly be re-hashed?

Attunements are stupid. They don't serve the purpose that you think they do, and only serve to cockblock guilds from finding new members.

The quest hubs are fine. In fact, I don't recall a single hub with 1-2 quests in it, outside of Dragonblight and the various flights. Calling those hubs is a bit of a misnomer.

The mystery and wonder you had at the beginning of the game can never come back, because you will never be new to the game again. Asking for Blizzard to pull an Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind on you just so you can feel like a kid in a candy shop again is a bit much.

Blaming Blizzard for fail pugs is stupid.

You claim that the player base is selfish, yet this "open letter" reeks of that very same stink. You want Blizzard to cater to you and the small, but exceedingly whiny and vocal, minority.

If you and your ilk would pause and think critically for 5 minutes about why content seems easier now, maybe you'd understand that it's unavoidable.

- Better gear for everybody. This has nothing to do with the ease of attaining said gear - but how gear has progressed. Look at tier 1 and 2 for any given class. Look at all the wasted stats, all the mis-spent item budget. Look at tier 4-6 - getting better, still some wasted stats. Now look at tier 7-10. Wasted stats are all but gone.
- Acceleration of information. All but the top .1% of guilds don't start beating new content until the top .1% does it first, and posts their strats. Raid success is a quick YouTube video assimilation away.
- Better addons. Grid. Clique. Healbot. DBM and its ilk.
- Better players. The current zeitgeist would have you believe that most players right now are "bads". By today's standards, this might be true... but a very large portion of players have been playing this game for at least 2 years now, if not 3 or 4. A lot of the bleeding edge raiding guilds have either been raiding together for a very long time, or have at least had individual members raiding for a very long time.

Of course, this will all fall on deaf ears at best, or get ripped to shreds by self-proclaimed "elitists" who, of course, are 12/12 HM ICC right now and have been for "months".

i just KNEW someone was gonna post some sort of comment that completely opposes everything the OP said...

OT: good read OP i agree with what you said and i believe that some of these problems will be fixed come cataclysm

[Tarien]

It's also completely besides the point, but I'm currently still raiding, wiping on LK25heroic... Wouldn't have died with 20% but will probably drop now with 25% buff. Hardest part about it is the summer attendance and new expansion blues, not the fight itself with the current buff.

And if he were dead on your first night of attempts, how would you feel? Would it give you the same feeling of satisfaction? Did you enjoy ToC raiding as much as ICC or Ulduar?

My guild cleared Ulduar within three days of 3.1 being made available, and while it felt good and it was server first and all that, some of the fights were one shots. Sure there are hardmodes which are fun and challenging, and they do come with a certain satisfaction, but it's not the same as killing a new boss.

This post is gradually wandering away from my original outlook, which is that the game needs upping (just a little!) in terms of challenge and could use a good helping of lore for those of us that digg that sort of stuff.

I have no problem with everyone seeing the content, I just think its a bit of a let down when Hardcore Guild A clear content in week 1 and a couple weeks later Casual Guild B clear it too. Where is the sense of achievement in doing something that everyone else can do almost as easily? Sure hardmodes alleviate this, but killing the same boss isn't as fun as killing a new one, and while I don't really care about loot, it's a means to an end, it sucks a bit that it all looks pretty much the same, just some color tweaks occasionally and some stats. Oh an a title for the final boss, maybe.

[Deleted]

i just KNEW someone was gonna post some sort of comment that completely opposes everything the OP said...

That's the beauty of different opinions and views.

[huth]

About the only good part to this letter is that you don't claim to speak for everybody.

Other than that, don't delude yourself into thinking that Blizzard doesn't know about the points you brought up or somehow managed to have less concrete data about how much people really want the changes you propose.

[Tarien]

No it doesn't make sense that you get a better feeling of achievement and success from downing a boss in a game. The same reason I don't get a sense of achievement or success for watching a TV show.
I play this game for enjoyment not as a method to work through my self esteem issues.

Lol, okay, so... you don't believe that achieving something difficult to do gives more of a feeling of having accomplished something very easy such as killing a sheep or cow or other critter? Should I infer that killing a boss for the first time gives you no sense of achievement, and a sense of achievement doesn't give you enjoyment?

Maybe because you have never achieved anything? :P

---------- Post added 2010-06-29 at 12:37 AM ----------

About the only good part to this letter is that you don't claim to speak for everybody.

Other than that, don't delude yourself into thinking that Blizzard doesn't know about the points you brought up or somehow managed to have less concrete data about how much people really want the changes you propose.

I know that some things are being changed. I read some stuff about hardmode only bosses, even a whole wing of Algalon type fights, this is good. There's stuff about making epic gear feel epic again, again good stuff. There are some changes towards what I ranted about in the original post. I just wanted to offer up my opinions to add to that data you say Blizz are collecting

---------- Post added 2010-06-29 at 12:39 AM ----------

You say hes asking wow to catter to him? My question is why shouldnt it? People that put the time and dedication into the game to research their class, to theorycraft, to spent time working out their gear and how to maximize their potential? Why should we want people who log on, dont know shit about their class or the encounter or what gear they should use getting to go into a raid and WTFPWN boss's that we as a hardcore community worked for hours girnding out at night to kill? Yeh it sucks if you have a job that interfeers, or kids or a wife but thats the breaks. You dont get shit IRL handed to you if you have to much going on why should it happen in game? There are late night guilds, there are mid day guilds for people that have odd shit going on, dont QQ how you cant find a guild to meet you.

I think I love you <3

[The Ogdru Jahad]

I agree with everything you said, expecially about Ulduar. By far my favorite raid in the game. I was a very casual player pre wotlk. Got serious in naxx, got even MORE serious in 3.1. I'm SO glad I actually became a hardcore raider in 3.1. Blizzard really put 110% effort into designing that raid, the epic feeling of the keepers, the uld god (see wut I did thar? lol) influence, it all was so climatic, the ending was perfect. Words cannot describe how well done the ulduar raid was created. If blizzard put that much effort into raids each content patch, I'd be more than happy. I had that amazing yogg-saron artwork as my desktop all the way until 3.3. Even when I took a break from WoW shortly into 3.2. Ugh the nostalgia of ulduar.

Also, yes I do agree with you, why was sartharion an encounter, what was the point of him being there. Was he a threat to himself?? We were fighting a black dragon in the black dragon shrine in wyrmrest temple. How does that even work?? At least Halion has a motive.

ToC was bullshit it was a sad excuse for a major content patch, the only reason that patch was worth my time was for epic gem cuts. The raid was boring as hell, recycled a last boss, we already knew the encounter basically. The bosses all used existing models with a new paint job. Also, why was the argent tournament raid after ulduar. Seriously, does blizzard honestly think giant chained up worms, yeti, eredar from a whole expansion ago, and undead bitchs with wings are a bigger threat than a god from when the world was first created??

The tier 9 sets were a joke, same set of armor for all types of armor proficiency, honestly blizzard can you be that more lazy. Using the excuse, it seemed appropriate because it was hosted by a friendly faction. I'm not even going to get into ICC. A good excuse for a last raid, but a shitty ending to one of the best plots in WoW lore. Next to the fall of deathwing.

I love how blizzard promised ICC to be "epic" and the end cinematic was going to be amazing. Big let down. Arthas goes all homo and does the most cliche line in gaming history. "Father, all I see is... DARKNESS!" Eyes roll back and he dies. Really, not epic at all. Not to mention it pulled a pirates of the Caribbean plot line with the, there always has to be a lich king. Not to mention Bolvar, although important was chosen to be a focal point of the Lich King plotline when Sylvanas and Jaina Proudmoore who were basically either buttsex or buttrape partners of Arthas get scrapped aside to a 5 man dungeon series with so little plotline it wasn't even worth my time except for an easy way to get geared for ToC on my alts.

Blizzard, I hope you know how much of a make or break cataclysm is for you. You will either score a homerun or miss completely and lose alot of customers. Fix the game to cater to the people who take the time and investment into improving their play style. Let the bads who spend 5 minutes a day leveling their gnome rogues get as high as heroic last boss epics and not end game content raiding epics meant for people who know the game.

Sorry to sound elitist, but honestly, its true. Call me a troll, call me an asshole, its how I feel, nothing will change that, also I used alot of commas in this sentence, lol. Thanks for reading my rant.

[Lebored]

Lol, okay, so... you don't believe that achieving something difficult to do gives more of a feeling of having accomplished something very easy such as killing a sheep or cow or other critter? Should I infer that killing a boss for the first time gives you no sense of achievement, and a sense of achievement doesn't give you enjoyment?

Maybe because you have never achieved anything? :P

Do you feel accomplished when you tie your shoes in the morning? Its more difficult than Velcro so by your logic you would have to feel a sense of achieving something.

A sense of achievement does give me enjoyment, it is just that my standards to get that sense of achievement appears to be higher than yours.

Maybe because the only things you've ever achieved have been in WoW :P

[huth]

You say hes asking wow to catter to him? My question is why shouldnt it?

Because, as far as the playerbase goes, he's being outnumbered at least 10:1.
Aside from that, the more time you spend actively playing the game, the less money can be made of you.

There is no logical reason to cater to him. Yet Blizzard still throws this crowd a bone or two.

[Tarien]

Do you feel accomplished when you tie your shoes in the morning? Its more difficult than Velcro so by your logic you would have to feel a sense of achieving something.

A sense of achievement does give me enjoyment, it is just that my standards to get that sense of achievement appears to be higher than yours.

Maybe because the only things you've ever achieved have been in WoW :P

For a child tying their shoes for the first time, sure, it's an achievement. As adults we expect challenges to be of much greater complexity and difficulty, even in some forms of our entertainment. Otherwise they just aren't entertaining. Where's the fun in a football game where the opposing team can't move, a quiz you know all the answers too, or an fps where you can't die. Sure it's briefly fun to be winning all the time, but without challenge it quickly becomes meaningless.

I'm afraid your double standards have me confused. You feel that the game in it's current state of everyone-can-clear-everything is okay and that I am wrong to think Blizzard should make raiding more challenging, and yet you think that you have high standards than me... no I can't see the logic there at all.

---------- Post added 2010-06-29 at 01:11 AM ----------

Because, as far as the playerbase goes, he's being outnumbered at least 10:1.
Aside from that, the more time you spend actively playing the game, the less money can be made of you.

There is no logical reason to cater to him. Yet Blizzard still throws this crowd a bone or two.

Oh goodie more logic. Lets assume you haven't read a thing I wrote eh, because you clearly haven't.

Logically everyone wants everything with no effort, logically we want to play for free, so logically Blizzard should give them it. How is that logic working for you? Logically I pay the same subscription you do, so logically if I log in once a month I can collect all the xp/gold/loot/items that you have, log out again. Right?

Your logic is faulty. Blizzard wants to keep as many people as it can happy, and I think they know that they erred too far on the casual side this expansion. This why there will be more algalon type bosses, less easy purples and so on.

Logic actually dictates that if there isn't sufficeint challenge people will get bored and leave. In the same train of thought, we know that without monthly subs there is no game, and that players who play more and/or play smarter deserve more. Otherwise I would just log in once a month, dance on IF bridge to show off my shinies and log out to spend my monthly sub on some beers.