Oxheart vs Ramaldni for a dwarf tank

[Zao]

Actually, any threat boosting stat is a decent boost for a tank. And in this case, crit vs armor pen? Crit will give you more threat. Guaranteed. This is definitely like shooting fish in a barrel. You're the fish, however.

While I agree with the fact that Oxheart is better for him, I don't agree with the ArPen vs crit argument.

Just ran a few sims and it always showed Ramaladni's higher than Oxheart. (I took a Tauren with my gear as example so the orc racial does not interfere) It was only by a measly 12 DPS...but still.

Kahorie's and Mr.Robot also do not show RS, so I'm not too sure how that will come into play.

tl;dr: Ramaladni's is (slightly) better

[patrins]

HOOLLLLY SHEEEIT expertise is more valuable then parry!??!? Did you just say that?! Do you tank? Link to armory please.

OK I'm being trolled aren't I? Where's the cameras? Are you really serious about arguing these 2 weapons that one is superior to the other??

I would consider avoidance borderline worthless. as in it can be a nice luxury. sometimes it helps healers catch up in bad situations, sometimes not. But wotlk tank healing isn't about "catching up" so much as 2 holy lights taking the tank from 20% to full hp.

you take what avoidance comes on your gear but never attempt to acquire more.

when the boss is hitting you for 33-35k those holy paladins are going to be bombing heals into you as if you had 0% avoidance anyway.

as to the op just use the oxheart to make itemizing your expertise easier. the threat difference is irrelevant. DK single target threat is the highest in the game right now. if anyone starts pushing your threat just work a few extra icy touches into your rotation to push back ahead.

[SilkforCalde]

While I agree with the fact that Oxheart is better for him, I don't agree with the ArPen vs crit argument.

Just ran a few sims and it always showed Ramaladni's higher than Oxheart. (I took a Tauren with my gear as example so the orc racial does not interfere) It was only by a measly 12 DPS...but still.

Kahorie's and Mr.Robot also do not show RS, so I'm not too sure how that will come into play.

tl;dr: Ramaladni's is (slightly) better

Few sims? What? I've never seen a threat sim, are you talking a dps sim? That wouldn't be the same at all. The highest threat ability that a DK has is Icy Touch and armor pen wouldn't even affect that, whereas crit quite obviously would.

I would bet you 20,000 gold that a dwarf using Oxheart would outthreat a dwarf using Ramaladni's Blade of Culling, if they were both wearing the exact same gear otherwise, had the exact same latency and exact same rotation.

[Pickwickman]

Few sims? What? I've never seen a threat sim, are you talking a dps sim? That wouldn't be the same at all. The highest threat ability that a DK has is Icy Touch and armor pen wouldn't even affect that, whereas crit quite obviously would.

I would bet you 20,000 gold that a dwarf using Oxheart would outthreat a dwarf using Ramaladni's Blade of Culling, if they were both wearing the exact same gear otherwise, had the exact same latency and exact same rotation.

Guys, WTF!

Zao, offcourse Ramaladni will be higher threat than Oxheart on a tauren, that is because he has NO +exp bonus from one or the other, and in that regard, Ramaladni will have more EXP then Oxheart.

But taking into account that the OP is a Dwarf, so will have the +EXP, this is a moot point, because for him Oxheart pulls ahead with threat.

Like I said at the start, Oxheart for dwarfs (and humans if you don't need hit, if you do get CEC) and Ramaladni for Orcs.

In all other cases, Ramaladni should pull ahead from Oxheart, just because of the fact it has MORE EXP then Oxheart.


In the first page there is even someone with dps-parses about it, which I forgot to add to my first post. I know dps is a weird way to calculate threat, but for a DK with only IT/DnD as +threatmodifier it is viable, as you do not DnD on singletarget tanking.

So, recap: Oxheart for Dwarves, Ramaladni for everyone else, and if you are severely behind on hitcap CEC for everyone.

[Zao]

guys...read my post. I already said that Oxheart would be better for him (as a dwarf or even as a human) I was comparing weapon vs weapon not weapon + racial vs weapon

[masterkiller]

Yeah, I've just been trolled. FYI, all prospective tanks? Don't pay attention to masterkiller. He thinks this is vanilla. He thinks avoidance actually matters (hint: it doesn't. You never gear for avoidance.).

And you didn't even remotely show that Oxheart is "28" more dps. That's laughable.

edit: I'm still laughing at the fact that you said .02% parry meant a weapon was better over another one that provided 2% crit and 3 expertise worth of threat. LMAO!

You trolled me good, I have to give props.

Yes I showed the sim results, and now someone else has shown them as well. Do you understand how to add up the values of which item is better? This has nothing to do with Crit vs ArP.

As Pick has stated, Oxheart if you have a mace racial (dwarf) and Ramaladnis in all other situations. YOU are doing it wrong with your Oxheart as an Orc. Even WITH the racial the Oxheart is still only 28 more dps then the Ramaladni's non-racial. If BOTH are non-racial, the Ramaldni's wins EVERY TIME.

You can't just say "Hey this has crit, the other has ArP, crit is better". You are missing the big picture, trying to stack threat as a tank is a non-factor. We don't have to worry about threat right now. These weapons are near identical in every aspect. However you are trying to distinguish between the 2 like it matters, EITHER WEAPON WONT MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

Let me help you out again:
EP ArmorPenetrationRating | 1.59
EP CritRating | 1.87
EP Strength | 2.41
Personal Expertise value | 2.81
EP WeaponDPS | 7.72

Ramaladni's
+91 expertise rating * 2.81 = 255.71 APE
+83 ArP * 1.59 = 131.97 APE
+6 STR * 2.41 = 14.46 APE
402.14 APE

Oxheart
+95 crit rating * 1.87 = 177.65
+76 expertise rating * 2.81 = 213.56
391.21 APE

So weapon vs weapon, the Ramaladni's provides more dps. Before I continue, choosing a tank weapon for dps isn't right unless there is a specific reason you need threat over survival stats and that is most likely going to be in top 1% guilds where dps has outscaled the tanks. However if we are doing this for pure exercise we can see how these weapons would effect the tiny tiny difference in threat. (TINY to the point where there is no situation in the entire instance that the 2 would make a difference)

With Ramaladni's Bruhn would miss 7.5% of the time due to parries.
WIth Oxheart AND with racial Bruhn would miss 6.7% of the time due to parries.

Let's look at it in practice and theorize a tank and spank fight.
3.5 weapon speed but we'll assume 20% haste which means you are now at 2.91 swing timer.
3 minute fight = 62 potential attacks
The difference between the 2 weapons WITH racial bonus is .08 which means you will miss 1 out of 108 swings. Completely disregarding rune strikes that is 1 potential miss out of almost every 2 boss fights.

HOWEVER
REMEMBER rune strikes CANT MISS so expertise doesn't help your rune strikes.
Let's assume 40% avoidance but lets assume worst case and you are RP starved for 1 or 2 rune strikes, dropping the rune strikes to 20 that leaves you with 32 melee swings.
You are looking at a parry difference now of every 356.4 attacks!
or every 1037 seconds. You would need to straight tank for 17 minutes before you would get parried 1 more time using the Oxheart (with racial) over the Ramaladni's.

Are you starting to see the big picture yet? The threat difference is TINY TINY TINY.

Go with the one that looks cooler OR if you are really trying to min/max, go with the one with survival stats (Ramaladni's .02% more parry)

---------- Post added 2010-06-29 at 02:56 PM ----------

I would consider avoidance borderline worthless. as in it can be a nice luxury. sometimes it helps healers catch up in bad situations, sometimes not. But wotlk tank healing isn't about "catching up" so much as 2 holy lights taking the tank from 20% to full hp.

you take what avoidance comes on your gear but never attempt to acquire more.

when the boss is hitting you for 33-35k those holy paladins are going to be bombing heals into you as if you had 0% avoidance anyway.

as to the op just use the oxheart to make itemizing your expertise easier. the threat difference is irrelevant. DK single target threat is the highest in the game right now. if anyone starts pushing your threat just work a few extra icy touches into your rotation to push back ahead.

I agree with everything you say there except that avoidance is near worthless and that you don't try to aquire more. It's certainly not as important as EHP stats (health/armor) but it is more valuable then threat when comparing similar survival vs threat stats while progressing. If you are farming, it's near worthless I agree. If you are progressing (or pugging) then you gear for EHP > Survivability > Threat.

Here is a quote from the now epic "Tanking and why we do what we do" guide:

Our conclusions are that avoidance modifies damage taken over time, and average damage taken per second. However, it does not modify the max damage taken per second (maxDTPS), the minimum time to die (minTTD), or the minimum time to die with heals (minTTDwHeals). How it is pretty blatantly obvious that if HPS > maxDTPS, then as long as you have enough hit points to survive 1 or 2 hits and your healers are on the ball and can heal you up, then nothing else really matters. However, if HPS becomes lower than maxDTPS, then you have to start worrying about minTTD and minTTDwHeals. maxDTPS obviously occurs when you get an unlucky avoidance streak. Therefore, while avoidance doesn’t modify minTTD or minTTDwHeals, it does modify the frequency at which minTTD or minTTD with heals occurs.

I dont stack avoidance, it is a nice "luxury" as you say and I'm definitely not arguing you with that, but I wouldn't want new tanks to believe they shouldnt be trying to gather it over threat stats (which I dont think you are suggesting either).

Don't gear for threat while progressing or pugging (cuz you most likely have a pug healer) but aquire EHP gear (health/armor) then survival (avoidance) gear then threat gear.

[BruhnDK]

Wow, the discussion sure is getting heated, I learned quiet a lot reading everything written here, so thanks; I have decided to go with oxheart, mainly because at the time I wrote this, I wore Faceplate of the Honorbound(69 expertise), I have just replaced it for Sanctified Scourgelord Faceguard(no expertise), so now, I'm only Expertise softcapped (26) with Oxheart, Ramaldani makes me fall to 23.

[masterkiller]

Cool cool, either one is going to work out fine for you.

-edit-
As Underdog corrected me below, you get more value from expertise below the 26 skill as a tank.


-original incorrect post-
Just an FYI, expertise will have the same value for you below the soft cap as it will above it (98% sure). It works off the hit table, and dodges get pushed off first then parries. So it has the same value above 26 as it does below, so it is still a threat stat. That doesn't change which one to choose, just for knowledge.

[underdogba]

Cool cool, either one is going to work out fine for you.

Just an FYI, expertise will have the same value for you below the soft cap as it will above it (98% sure). It works off the hit table, and dodges get pushed off first then parries. So it has the same value above 26 as it does below, so it is still a threat stat. That doesn't change which one to choose, just for knowledge.

That is absolutely 100% untrue.

Expertise is more valuable is a threat stat below the soft cap simply because it is removing both dodges and parries at the same rate simultaineously. Once you reach the softcap, it is only removing parries.

[Generalfrisk]

So.. Taking into consideration that I'm the char in the armory link at my sig (pic is out of date), And I'm a dwarf (Mace specialization), and a tank. Which would be better (both normal mode versions)

WTF? Dwarves can't tank...

[masterkiller]

That is absolutely 100% untrue.

Expertise is more valuable is a threat stat below the soft cap simply because it is removing both dodges and parries at the same rate simultaineously. Once you reach the softcap, it is only removing parries.

Thanks you are right.

"32.79 Expertise rating* = will remove 1% chance to be dodged and 1% chance to be parried"

[Generalfrisk]

On a much more serious note (I didn't read all the posts so forgive me if i'm restating) Expertise could also help a lot with Mitigation, because the less you get parried, the less hits you take (And anybody who argues this is wrong, because DR does still exist)

It doesn't have to be a deciding factor, but if you're getting more Exp from Oxheart, and the Crit and ArP are minimal factors, all signs say Oxheart.

Or just Re-roll horde like any smart person would do.

[masterkiller]

On a much more serious note (I didn't read all the posts so forgive me if i'm restating) Expertise could also help a lot with Mitigation, because the less you get parried, the less hits you take (And anybody who argues this is wrong, because DR does still exist)

It doesn't have to be a deciding factor, but if you're getting more Exp from Oxheart, and the Crit and ArP are minimal factors, all signs say Oxheart.

Or just Re-roll horde like any smart person would do.

That was true in old content, in ICC only LDW and Sindragosa parry haste. We may see it turned back on in Cata since the gear scaling will be reset.

[BruhnDK]

WTF? Dwarves can't tank...

Someone give me an O'rly Owl please

[Generalfrisk]

That was true in old content, in ICC only LDW and Sindragosa parry haste. We may see it turned back on in Cata since the gear scaling will be reset.

I actually didn't know this, not doubting but could you link evidence of this? And also, since we're going into Cata with this gear, having the gear to counter Parry Haste would be a good idea

[masterkiller]

Here is the originating research: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...topic&start=30

Here is a quick list:

Boss Can boss parry-haste?
Marrowgar no
Deathwhisper yes
Deathbringer Saurfang no
Festergut no
Rotface no
Putricide no
Prince Valanar no
Prince Taldaram no
Blood-Queen Lana’thal no
Sindragosa yes
Lich King no

---------- Post added 2010-06-29 at 05:43 PM ----------

Here is a good read on the value of expertise for tanking: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic

At the top of the page: On a boss which has parry-haste disabled, expertise gives absolutely zero damage mitigation benefit. A reasonably complete list of bosses that parry-haste can be found here.

[Generalfrisk]

When did they change Festergut Parry hasting?

[boseguy22]

We would have to go back to the blue posts when ICC was released last December, but parry haste was a big concern because it was turned on for fights and wasnt supposed to be. Apparently the encounter designers have a check box of some sort to add it to any boss.

If someone has those post handy and could link them, that would be awesome, but parry haste isnt a serious concern in ICC.

[Generalfrisk]

I'd definately agree it isn't, but threat doesn't seem to be either, which was a big part of this post. If you have 100% threat on the boss, any additional threat is wasted as long as you maintain that 100% threat. So what's the point of stacking threat if you have agro no matter what? But you can't over-mitigate

[masterkiller]

The reason is avoidance levels were getting ridiculously high, so to keep the same damage throughput they had to drastically increase the amount of damage each attack did.

For instance, lets say the boss is doing 10k dps on you in ToC and you had 50% avoidance. For napkin math with a 2 second swing timer and you are avoidance 1 out of every 2 attacks (50%) the boss is hitting you for 40k per hit.

In ICC gear, if you had 75% avoidance (what I would be at now) you are getting hit once out of every 4 hits. To keep the same damage throughput and the same 2 second swing timer that is 80k per hit.

The problem is Blizz designed a raiding system early on that did not include all the hard mode tiers of gear and had to compensate for it later on when they realized it was successful (from Sarth). Before I ramble, this is why they implemented the ICC avoidance nerf to keep the boss throughput what it was before without a single shot or a parry haste killing a tank before a healer can react.

So ICC nerf and Parry haste turned off are for the same reasons, they can keep the boss throughput up without creating situations where a tank can go from full to null in a second.