Whats wrong?

[MestHoop]

ya blizz kinda screwed up the hybrid/pure thing I mean look at fury wars lol, but as far as pallies are concerned they did a pretty awesome job with it, you said the one you refer to hits 14k? well thats kind of within my prediction perfectly and I assumed that a pally would be able to hit that high with about 6k or so GS, 264 277 pieces would get a GS of around that much, now if I had around 6k gs on lets say my fury war or perhaps a hunter I would get much much higher then 14k dps. I was actually hesitant to post at all because we don't know how high the OP can hit yet without a parse or recount but if he/she's getting around 12k or 13k dps I would say that nothings wrong. I can gurantee you that the only reason that pallies are competitive at all is because were up against undead... and T10 set 2 is godly.

Well I don't believe they screwed up TBH :P
Regardless I still don't see your point of a paladin not being competitive on the DPS charts in comparison to say a warrior or hunter. I generally don't look at top guild parses, but I highly doubt they're behind the other DPS too much. Hell, we have pallies from top raiding guilds on the forum right here :P ask them!

Oh, for reference, my guild is 8/12 HM 25 man atm.

[Shornaal]

Quick answer just checking your gear, sorry i don't have much time now to give a full answer and help you more.

I have similar stats but 5% less crit, and i was doing around 11/11.5k in fights like DBS/Fester25 back when we had only 15% buff, with a ~200ms connection and 10/20 FPS with Shadow's Edge. So at first glance you can do at least 13k on those fights.

You can check my armory in sig if you want, just ignore my STR ashen ring, it's more than a month that i can't raid and PvP it's all i can do atm, and i prefer that ring for it.

[Requital]

I'm not sure where to start but I'm going to pick apart everything you do some don't panic or get offended this is how you improve, This is a shitty fight to judge you on but you weren't in for many others that can calculate properly.

So Marrowgar is what I'm using and it's a terrible fight but it will still give you an idea. Fight was 303 seconds long and you used the following abilities. So these are ECD's for your abilities for that fight.

Judgement - 23 - 13.17 secs
Divine Storm - 44 - 6.86 secs
Crusader Strike - 34 - 8.91 secs
Consecrate - 14 - 21 secs
Exorcism - 11 - 27.5 secs

Those are pretty bad, Judgment you want as close to 9 as humanly possible, CS around 6, DS around 4-5, Cons around 10-15 and Exo it's not terrible but could be slightly better.

[Ronark]

Pallies simply aren't meant to hit the top place on the dps chart in comparison to someone of the same gear and skill level as them. were mostly meant to be a defensive utility class.

It depends on the encounter. On a lot of T&S, we can do well vs melee and other hybrids, but some Mages or Hunters will eat us alive. On others we win over a lot of fights in terms of Damage Done or DPS done- Usually I'm in the top 3 for most of the ICC fights.

[palanåwt]

Pallies simply aren't meant to hit the top place on the dps chart in comparison to someone of the same gear and skill level as them. were mostly meant to be a defensive utility class. I realised this a long time ago and started trying to help the raid as much as possible with things other then dps. Things like using sacred shield on the tank during festerguts single target sequence if you think the healers may have a hard time healing through it, salving the top dpser if they're about to pull, and sacrifice on dps or even the tank when they're in need of it. ofc our raid buffs count too

Absolutely not true. If your DPS is suffering it is because you are wasting GCDs on you salvs and putting sacred shield on the tank (that's the holy pally's job.) Ret Pally's, if played well can totally dominate in a lot of fights, especially in ICC/ToC (undead ftw)

As for the OP, your gear isn't bad by any means. You could stand to drop some hit and gain some haste. The melee haste badge trinket would probably be quite an upgrade over that ToC trinket. Also as someone else said, try getting the tiny abom and save up to buy the saronite needed for shadow's edge.

[Kilinjaro]

Judgement - 23 - 13.17 secs
Divine Storm - 44 - 6.86 secs
Crusader Strike - 34 - 8.91 secs
Consecrate - 14 - 21 secs
Exorcism - 11 - 27.5 secs

Those are pretty bad, Judgment you want as close to 9 as humanly possible, CS around 6, DS around 4-5, Cons around 10-15 and Exo it's not terrible but could be slightly better.

OP it seems your putting cs on to much of a priority personally I use this for the first 20 secs of the fight judge>cs>ds>exor>conc>hw to get the stack up then pop avenging wrath to start skyrocketing my dps while I use judge>exor>ds>cs>conc>hw

about the "blizz screwed up" thing I was actually trying to prove the oposite its just that certain classes like fury wars who have the greatest dps potential, or locks who are pures yet almost never top the charts was what I was refering to. As far as I'm cocerned pallies are pretty much perefctly made and are hitting exactly as much as they should... only complaint being that were to dependant on T10 set 2 and our increased damage to undead talents/spell.

[Nekrol]

on another note you should really respecc, into aura mastery or divine sac.

[Kilinjaro]

Absolutely not true. If your DPS is suffering it is because you are wasting GCDs on you salvs and putting sacred shield on the tank (that's the holy pally's job.) Ret Pally's, if played well can totally dominate in a lot of fights, especially in ICC/ToC (undead ftw)

actually I rarely use salv because its almost never needed but sacred shield is pretty much a must, festergut a great example for this its possible to absorb around 50% of the overall dmg done from the pulse dmg giving the healers one less person to heal for the whole fight. When did it become so widely known that pallies can dominate at all times and will always get the top place on the charts when played well? I had specifically said that another class with the same gear and skill (would have to be a pure, hunter is a great example) would get much higher dps then a pally and to make up for this obvious difference in dps I personally would try to offer as much utility as I can.

[palanåwt]

actually I rarely use salv because its almost never needed but sacred shield is pretty much a must, festergut a great example for this its possible to absorb around 50% of the overall dmg done from the pulse dmg giving the healers one less person to heal for the whole fight. When did it become so widely known that pallies can dominate at all times and will always get the top place on the charts when played well? I had specifically said that another class with the same gear and skill (would have to be a pure, hunter is a great example) would get much higher dps then a pally and to make up for this obvious difference in dps I personally would try to offer as much utility as I can.

Well since your sacred shield doesn't stack with the one the holy pally should be putting on the tank or the one the tank is putting on himself you are just wasting a GCD trying it.

And I didn't say they dominate all fights, i said we "can totally dominate in a lot of fights" Hell you even included it in your quote before misconstruing it. And if you haven't noticed, the lines between hybrid and pure dps classes have become very blurred. There are many fights where a boomkin or ret pally can destroy a "pure" dps class, and fights that are much more suited to the pure classes then to ret. On any given night, given equally beneficial gear, a hunter can top one fight and a ret top the next. So your lame argument of how ret pally's are a "defensive class" holds absolutely no water.

[Nillo]

OP it seems your putting cs on to much of a priority personally I use this for the first 20 secs of the fight judge>cs>ds>exor>conc>hw to get the stack up then pop avenging wrath to start skyrocketing my dps while I use judge>exor>ds>cs>conc>hw

I see why you think Rets are not meant to be top dps, because you can't do any good dps with that fail rotation. Exo is dead last in our priority list and you place it on 2 -.-

only complaint being that were to dependant on T10 set 2 and our increased damage to undead talents/spell.

So you're complaining that we have a decent set bonus ?

[Kilinjaro]

Well since your sacred shield doesn't stack with the one the holy pally should be putting on the tank or the one the tank is putting on himself you are just wasting a GCD trying it.

I meant I use it on myself... and its not exactly an arguement when we litterally only have one dps cd, also blizz even said they would be making us an offensive class and considers us as a defensive dps class atm, I was kinda stating a fact rather then trying to argue about it. About the "dominate at all times" thing... /sarcasm off? was mere trying to make it blatently obvious that pallies simply are not considered the top dpsers and should not be able to get any higher then ceratin other classes which is an extremely specific traslation of my first post.

[Badpaladin]

Regarding the hybrid versus pure argument....

...assuming no Shadowmourne, if you've got a good players a ret paladin should be near the top of the middle of the pack on most fights. The last time I actually did an 11/12 277 Tuesday farm before LK25HM practice(yay....) was at early 15% and I was at the top or near the top every single fight, but my guild's overall raid DPS was pretty low. If I had stepped into Exodus at the time I would have been smack dab in the middle(obviously there were gear discrepancies, but nothing too major). My point is, you may see yourself up at the top without a Shadowmourne, but that's because the rest of your guild doesn't have very good DPS.

Now if you do have Shadowmourne, you should be ashamed if you're in the middle of the pack.

[Kilinjaro]

I see why you think Rets are not meant to be top dps, because you can't do any good dps with that fail rotation. Exo is dead last in our priority list and you place it on 2 -.-

um its the second highest hitting ability we have? ofc it isnt used as much as the rest because of its cd but that doesnt mean you shoudln't use your second top dmg move near the end of your rotation.

So you're complaining that we have a decent set bonus ?

um... no? I don't remember saying that at all

[Prentice]

um its the second highest hitting ability we have? ofc it isnt used as much as the rest because of its cd but that doesnt mean you shoudln't use your second top dmg move near the end of your rotation.

um... no? I don't remember saying that at all

You are a very confused ret pally. As was already mentioned, Exorcism is right above Holy Wrath at the bottom of the rotation. It should never EVER come before Judgement, CS, DS, or Consecration unless you are using it when out of range for any other attack.

Does the logic require explanation?? I think it just might.

[Badpaladin]

um its the second highest hitting ability we have? ofc it isnt used as much as the rest because of its cd but that doesnt mean you shoudln't use your second top dmg move near the end of your rotation.

[palanåwt]

As was already mentioned, Exorcism is right above Holy Wrath at the bottom of the rotation. It should never EVER come before Judgement, CS, DS, or Consecration unless you are using it when out of range for any other attack.

Exorcism and holy wrath are nice fillers when everything else is on cd... that is all.

[Nillo]

um its the second highest hitting ability we have? ofc it isnt used as much as the rest because of its cd but that doesnt mean you shoudln't use your second top dmg move near the end of your rotation.

Just some numbers from my last WoL:
Exo: 9450 dmg average

CS: 4k hit , 8k crit (+2400 RV) with more than 60% chance to crit => 1600+6240 = 8240
SoV: 2.8k hit 5.7k crit same crit chance => 1120 + 3420 = 4540
=> total damage for CS = 12780. (even more with TaJ)

[Kilinjaro]

Just some numbers from my last WoL:
Exo: 9450 dmg average

CS: 4k hit , 8k crit (+2400 RV) with more than 60% chance to crit => 1600+6240 = 8240
SoV: 2.8k hit 5.7k crit same crit chance => 1120 + 3420 = 4540
=> total damage for CS = 12780. (even more with TaJ)

exor avg hit for 9.4k? what? its like 10-13k for me and has 100% chance to do so while cs hits low as hell and must have a double crit to be even comparable to exor in anyway. I don't have TaJ but cs might get a higher place in my rotation if I did

[Prentice]

exor avg hit for 9.4k? what? its like 10-13k for me and has 100% chance to do so while cs hits low as hell and must have a double crit to be even comparable to exor in anyway. I don't have TaJ but cs might get a higher place in my rotation if I did

You realize that you have to look at the whole picture, right? The only possible side effect or benefit from dealing damage with Exorcism is the application of Vindication if you have it talented. WOO HOO!! If you whack your target with CS you are applying debuffs, buffing yourself, and triggering additional bonus damage. You need to compare apples to apples. Look at the entire package thats being delivered by these nukes, and not just the CS damage vs Exorcism damage.

Another thing to consider is that Exorcism falls into the spell hit category. If you cast Exorcism 5 times in a fight and one of them misses, your Exo value just bottomed out.

[Kilinjaro]

after the buffs have been applied you will always use cs before they drop off so none of the entire package is lost by putting it lower in the rotation.