Blizz gone tunnel visioned?

[Thunderbuns]

Ok I know I am going to get some haters and probably some bad comments back for writing this, but anyone remember the times in vanilla wow when you could practically be anything you wanted to be, not depending on the class/spec,for instance a shaman tank, having your hunter/lock pet tanking, being a smite priest(my favorite), and others.
I was one of the people who got excited when I heard that shamans were getting a taunt, (basically because right now I have the gear for tanking), but now I hear its not for tanking. I have always thought that blizz has more potential to get more out of the current classes. They have a healer class for cloth/mail/leather/and plate...why not think about doing the same thing for tanking? It would just allow more utility and individuality among the classes in my opinion.

[Deleted]

Tanks need to have high armor and clothies don't have that...

And about the shaman tank idea; it sounds cool, but then they need some kind of buff to generate more threat...

[Augrelle]

^ Rockbiter Generates 30% more threat now. On top of that, they could simpley give us one or two spells and we could tank. here is a quick idea...

Magma Shield - When the shaman is attack, Lower the attack of the attacker by n% (forgot what the slow is). Also Lowers damage done to the shaman by 20%, Lowers damage the shaman does by 20%, and increase threat generated by 40%. 10 charges.

There, you have a spell that won't be abused that much in PvP by Enhancement or Ele since it lowers thier damage. Resto would have to choose between this or earthshield. Add a deep enhancement talent that makes you uncritable. There, that one spell would make up for the lack of plate armor. The next problem is adding one or two more defensive cooldowns that other shaman specs won't be able to abuse or enhancement can't abuse that much in PvP


Blizzard doesn't want people going outside of what they planed for the class anymore. I don't know what is more fun, being able to choose what you want to spec as for PvP (in raids you was peghole into a spec in classic), or the creative ideas that came forth from some talent builds completly killed since Blizzard doesn't want to Support it.

[nazrakin]

Really? The vanilla I remember forced every priest, shaman, druid, and paladin into healing roles and Warriors were the only viable tanks. I do remember people shaman tanking or using smite priests for shits n giggle, and theres nothing stopping you from doing that today. In fact, its a lot easier to pull that stuff off.

I would like to see more tanking classes though. I'm not sure I'd like it to be a Shaman since we've already got a support role. Part of the problem the game has right now is that the support roles are spread too thin. It'd be better if they turned Demo Locks or BM Hunters into tanking classes.

[Augrelle]

Really? The vanilla I remember forced every priest, shaman, druid, and paladin into healing roles and Warriors were the only viable tanks. I do remember people shaman tanking or using smite priests for shits n giggle, and theres nothing stopping you from doing that today. In fact, its a lot easier to pull that stuff off.

I would like to see more tanking classes though. I'm not sure I'd like it to be a Shaman since we've already got a support role. Part of the problem the game has right now is that the support roles are spread too thin. It'd be better if they turned Demo Locks or BM Hunters into tanking classes.

I think he ment for non-raid. For any non-raid content, you could use just about any spec in both PvP or PvE and get away with it. Thought that was also back in the day when PvP just a one shot wonder. Today, Voidwalkers or hunter pets can't tank worth crap for long (back then I remember a group where I healed a hunter's pet, tanking the whole instance). Shockadins are basicly dead. Shaman tanks are getting the final nail in the coffin. Smite priests... well I don't know where they are at. I mean sure, blizzard didn't support these specs but they also didn't go out of the way to kill them as well like they do today. I mean back in TBC, Ele dualwield wasn't that OP in the least. Sure it was able to pull off a few big numbers if it popped all the cooldowns and blasted you with a crit, thought don't mages already do that?

I'm sure no spell power weapon in ICC is one-handed, so what is the big deal for not letting resto and Ele Dualwield. Double dipping enchants and imbues right now won't make up for the stats lost from an ICC shield or staff.

[Thunderbuns]

Good ideas Augrelle. I do some shaman tanking right now, not in ICC or ToC of course but in some Ulduar and Naxx I still can. I must have a hunter MD me and it takes about 5 seconds for me to get enough agro before the dps can go, but it works. And you nazrakin I know what you are thinking, there is a youtube video of a BM hunter tanking an ICC boss I believe. I have always been the one to go outside the box on my toons. I try shaman tankin and even tried the melee mage for laughs of course(mix of instant casts and agil greens), of course I only get about 750-900 dps with a melee mage, but it was fun, definitly not worth it though lol.
But the idea of having a BM hunter/Demo Lock/Shaman tanking is really appealing to me

[nazrakin]

I think he ment for non-raid. For any non-raid content, you could use just about any spec in both PvP or PvE and get away with it. Thought that was also back in the day when PvP just a one shot wonder. Today, Voidwalkers or hunter pets can't tank worth crap for long (back then I remember a group where I healed a hunter's pet, tanking the whole instance). Shockadins are basicly dead. Shaman tanks are getting the final nail in the coffin. Smite priests... well I don't know where they are at. I mean sure, blizzard didn't support these specs but they also didn't go out of the way to kill them as well like they do today. I mean back in TBC, Ele dualwield wasn't that OP in the least. Sure it was able to pull off a few big numbers if it popped all the cooldowns and blasted you with a crit, thought don't mages already do that?

I'm sure no spell power weapon in ICC is one-handed, so what is the big deal for not letting resto and Ele Dualwield. Double dipping enchants and imbues right now won't make up for the stats lost from an ICC shield or staff.

I'm talking about outside of raids also, there really weren't many people who seriously spec'd as a smite priest or used their voidwalker to tank instances. There were those who did it for shits n giggles but it def wasn't something that just anyone could pull off.

And people still do these things, albeit not as much since we have dual specs and more classes are viable for these roles.

[Omanley]

blizzard likes to fuck with the players. especially shaman.

we have half a dozen tanking abilities and are not supposed to tank. nevermind old abilities they are simply to lazy to change. they still continue to make them.

"here you get a taunt so that you can save healers"

dont make me laugh, how many hunters do you see using distracting shot? 3% maybe? and 2 of those are noobs not knowing what they´re doing.

[Augrelle]

Then I must of been on a wierd server since in PvP, I ran into quiet a lot of ally Smite and shadow priests. Mainly Nelf or Human (undead for shadow but they was allies and not enemies), but smite priests no-the-less. Also Lots, and lots of shockadins... damn freaken shockadins. Now-a-days, I don't see ANY smite priests or ANY Shockadins. Also I really don't think that a voidwalker could tank instance content. Maybe a BM pet can (since they scale slightly better) but not a voidwalker.

Also I agree with Omanley. We have a few tank abilities like Anticipation, Toughness, Rockbiter, Frost shock, Unleash Elements, and even Shamanistic rage can be thought as a tanking cooldown. Add one or two more spells, a few talents here/there and bam, you got another tank. The Problem is balancing the tanking side of the tree with the DPS side of the tree, since we don't have forms like druids. Thought a few of those could be solved by placing a trigger cooldown on a few abilities. An example is this - You trigger Tank emergency ability that lasts 30 seconds; a 30 second cooldown on Shamanistic Rage and other tanking cooldowns.

Hell, putting rockbiter "unleash elements" taunt is just... geh. Frost shock or earth elemental is still the better choice.

[Thunderbuns]

And to be honest I feel blizz needs to make more tank classes/specs...Tanks are in severe need. Today I had over a 30 minute queue for my warlock just for 1 heroic. I know some people believe that DPS classes should only dps, but to be honest who is going to get hurt having a shamantank, warlock tank, or hunter tank? Faster queues will happen also in my opinion

[Mewseph]

And to be honest I feel blizz needs to make more tank classes/specs...Tanks are in severe need. Today I had over a 30 minute queue for my warlock just for 1 heroic. I know some people believe that DPS classes should only dps, but to be honest who is going to get hurt having a shamantank, warlock tank, or hunter tank? Faster queues will happen also in my opinion

Players who want to tank, play a tank. Increasing the number of specs available isn't going to markedly increase the number the players who want to tank.

While it's cool to think "Woo shaman tank", once the novelty wears off the player will play a DPS/Healer unless they want to tank. Tanking isn't an accessibility problem.

[Augrelle]

Players who want to tank, play a tank. Increasing the number of specs available isn't going to markedly increase the number the players who want to tank.

While it's cool to think "Woo shaman tank", once the novelty wears off the player will play a DPS/Healer unless they want to tank. Tanking isn't an accessibility problem.

Not completly True. My friend in Wrath wanted to tank, but he completly and utterly hates leveling alts or even one alt. Infact, none of his alts are last 30. A few friends and I leveled up an Warrior for him and he still tanks and enjoys it, but would rather not need to switch between his chracters. My self as well since the tank spec I enjoy the most is going away. I played a frost DK tank along with my shaman. I don't enjoy blood's style of stelf-healing tanking. I'm not going to re-roll blood or make another alt since I as well hate leveling them.

[morphosys]

The only thing is, while yes Rockbiter does increase threat by 30% keep in mind in order for us to parry we lose 30% threat, so it's kinda cancelled out. Just blocking won't really be enough dmg mitagation.

[Thunderbuns]

To be honest, I know when dual spec came out....all of my friends that had a healing or tank spec took that as their secondary in order to get quicker queue times for dungeons, or to be picked faster for raids. SO no, I do believe that this will drastically decrease queue times.

[barrsftw]

the taunt and increased threat from rockbiter is no question added for situational ranged tanking. Just like warlocks are those tanks today.. in cata shamans will be a nice alternative

[evan_s]

I don't think you can expect Blizzard to support all these odd-ball combination that people come up with. Blizzard supporting shaman tanking would require some major reworks and would have to result in the Enhancement tree ending up something like the feral tree is. A mix of talents with some being useful for both dps and tanking and others being focused on one or the other. I think that is a lot more work than blizzard wants to do.

I've also never understood what people think a tanking spec or class for outside of raids would be. How do you create a class that is designed to fill a roll only in a group setting but not a raid setting? I can't think of any way of pulling this off that wouldn't leave them as a noticeably less effective group tank than other tanks. Same can be said of dps. If a dps spec isn't at least competitive then they aren't really supporting that spec, are they?

The same is true for all the other odd ball specs people came up with. Supporting Smite priests or shockadins would just add another spec they would have to balance and would make balancing the talents, spells and ability that much more difficult. Blizzard already has enough trouble keeping all the different dps classes and specs balanced as they change mechanics and gear improves with out odd-ball specs being consider.

As far as tanks goes I don't know that adding another class that can be a tank would help that much or is even required. If you look at classes 4 out of the 10 classes can be tanks. Assuming equal class distribution, that means that 2/5 of the classes can be a tank but only 1/5 of them need to be tanks to balance the population for random heroics. Obviously, there are other factors besides who can tank that are contributing to the lack of tanks in heroics.

Having recently leveled up my Dk and built a tanking spec/gear for him to get quick queues while earning up the large amount of badges to gear up I have definitely seen a large number of different things that make me understand why someone might not want to tank for random heroics even if they are geared/speced for it.

[Thunderbuns]

Listen, I am not saying that dps classes should lose a spec for a healing spec or tanking spec, but as feral druids can either spec a tank or dps, so should an enhance shaman. Its only like enhance shams are dps and half a tank.
Wait I did hear something about all paladins will be able to learn holy shock (dont know if that is true or not), which technically would make them all some sort of a shockadin. Smite priests probably will become viable in pvp in cataclysm with the changes that are being made to smite. Smite will also heal members as it does damage, which makes Smite priests and shockadins seem a good possibility.

Also you might say that having 4 out of the 12 classes be able to tank really means nothing when there are also 2x more healers than there are tanks, and practically a billion times more dps than tanks. But having classes that can spec into more tanks/healers, would make heroics/raids much quicker to get together. Most of the times on my dps toons I see that there are 2 other dps and a healer in queue for 15-30 minutes most times.

Currently there is a shaman that does tank ICC, which can be seen on youtube. He seems to do it fine, and thats what got me interested in shaman tanking. He carefully times his pots and totems in order to tank, but just to give him a simple taunt would make him a true tank. Also there is a video of a BM hunter tanking some bosses in ICC and ToC, and I believe I saw a demo lock tanking ToC also.

[evan_s]

Listen, I am not saying that dps classes should lose a spec for a healing spec or tanking spec, but as feral druids can either spec a tank or dps, so should an enhance shaman. Its only like enhance shams are dps and half a tank.
Wait I did hear something about all paladins will be able to learn holy shock (dont know if that is true or not), which technically would make them all some sort of a shockadin. Smite priests probably will become viable in pvp in cataclysm with the changes that are being made to smite. Smite will also heal members as it does damage, which makes Smite priests and shockadins seem a good possibility.

Also you might say that having 4 out of the 12 classes be able to tank really means nothing when there are also 2x more healers than there are tanks, and practically a billion times more dps than tanks. But having classes that can spec into more tanks/healers, would make heroics/raids much quicker to get together. Most of the times on my dps toons I see that there are 2 other dps and a healer in queue for 15-30 minutes most times.

My point is that based purely on the percentages of classes that could be a tank there should be plenty of them around so the fact that there isn't enough around isn't because of a lack of options. It's because there are other factors that make people not interested in tanking, especially in random heroics. If the tank problem isn't due to not having enough options, then adding another option isn't going to substantially change the situation.

If you want to fix the lack of tanks for heroics they need to address the other issues that discourage tanking. They are addressing some of them in Cataclysm, like removing the need to gather a bunch of defense gear to be uncrittable, but I'm not sure they can solve all the issues related to tanking.

Currently there is a shaman that does tank ICC, which can be seen on youtube. He seems to do it fine, and thats what got me interested in shaman tanking. He carefully times his pots and totems in order to tank, but just to give him a simple taunt would make him a true tank. Also there is a video of a BM hunter tanking some bosses in ICC and ToC, and I believe I saw a demo lock tanking ToC also.

And these are tricks by bored people waiting for the expansion to come out and the 25% health buff present in ICC. There wasn't any shaman or hunter pets tanking in ICC when it first came out or in any other challenging situation. If you really want to play a class that can both tank and dps roll one of the existing tanking classes. Asking for enhancement shaman to become a tanking class is pointless. It's a silly request that won't happen much like the people dreaming about elemental/resto dual wielding weapons blue posts have made pretty clear they won't support or allow.

As far as Smite priests being viable for dps, we'll just have to wait and see but I highly doubt it. It might work for a limited timeframe but talent changes, gear scaling or some other will take it from sorta viable to not working anymore. All paladins getting holy shock does not make them all shockadin's.

[Supertramp]

I'm just thinking about Enhancement as 10man OT's like in the Karazhan days (to save up raid spots for dps). 1 MT, 1 Enhance shaman in PvP gear. This aint a problem no more though, with Dual Spec and all.

[Kalokagathos]

What i find wierd about the Rockbiter taunt is.. Its meant for saving a healer in a stressed situation (Or something likely)..
But you will have to apply rockbiter to your wep before you use Unleash Weapon, there after to reput whatever wep ench you had on before..