New announced changes to talent trees

[Cortano]

and people doubted me, shame on you

They agreed with my points exactly.

The fundamental complexity with a feral build is if you have any points left over, you can use these to "cherry-pick" attractive tanking or DPS talents. It would be as if a protection warrior unlocked the highest level arms/fury talents at the same time they unlocked prot talents. You won't be able to pick up every single possible talent, but you can get all of the important ones. One important change in cataclysm is that they bake a lot of the "shared" stuff in... just by being a feral you get a solid package of both tanking and DPS ex-talents and mastery carries over.

For example, a lot of talents in the current build boost ravage and opening a fight. Druids who take these talents will be an absolute menace in PvP, the burstiness ravage spam will be incredibly high. However, those talents may not make a lot of effect over the course of a 6-minute boss fight. You might 'skip' those in a 'hybrid' build, instead grabbing some tanking talents. It is a trade-off, but a viable choice. I don't think those kinds of interesting trade-offs present a balancing issue though.

I would consider it a total failure if Blizzard had a single set of viable cat talents and a single set of bear talents that you had to take every talent in that set, and nothing else, or be ineffective in your chosen role. I think they would consider that a failure as well.

[exochaft]

They agreed with my points exactly.

The fundamental complexity with a feral build is if you have any points left over, you can use these to "cherry-pick" attractive tanking or DPS talents. It would be as if a protection warrior unlocked the highest level arms/fury talents at the same time they unlocked prot talents. You won't be able to pick up every single possible talent, but you can get all of the important ones. One important change in cataclysm is that they bake a lot of the "shared" stuff in... just by being a feral you get a solid package of both tanking and DPS ex-talents and mastery carries over.

For example, a lot of talents in the current build boost ravage and opening a fight. Druids who take these talents will be an absolute menace in PvP, the burstiness ravage spam will be incredibly high. However, those talents may not make a lot of effect over the course of a 6-minute boss fight. You might 'skip' those in a 'hybrid' build, instead grabbing some tanking talents. It is a trade-off, but a viable choice. I don't think those kinds of interesting trade-offs present a balancing issue though.

I would consider it a total failure if Blizzard had a single set of viable cat talents and a single set of bear talents that you had to take every talent in that set, and nothing else, or be ineffective in your chosen role. I think they would consider that a failure as well.

Read the rest of the post. They agreed with nothing you said. =P

Blizz is very anti-hybrid spec and anti-"go kitty and put up much larger numbers than any tank while being a good tank". Yes, I was an OT in BC, and I was damn good at it. Most people nowadays probably don't even know why good feral druids would carry mana pots with them back in BC. Do you remember why? Well, I'll save you the time of Googling the answer: power shifting. That separated mediocre druids from great druids. Depending on OOC procs, mana could become dangerously low, especially if you had to B-rez or Innervate. 65% of pure DPS damage? Hell no, we were right on the tails of pure DPSers, some fights we could even top them (yay bleeds during raid CC fights). Beyond that, druid tanks had amazing threat potential (my nickname was "Tanks with Salv") while being able to go to kitty form and put out almost as good of DPS as a full-time kitty for the times we weren't tanking.

With druids,"hybrid" takes on a new meaning, but the same word is used by Blizz for other classes. My original quote even states that Blizz would want a viable tank or OT to be penalized when they go cat form in terms of DPS. I have a sneaking suspicion that Blizz might even go so far as to have talents along the lines of "This talent boosts bear, but penalized kitty at the same time." Why? It's hard to balance the ability of kittens and bears at the same time, especially if you want to use your utility points to boost your damage. This would also let us have a core bear/kitty spec with spare points able to use in utility and choose utility talents... because if we stray to another role's primary talents, we'll kill our primary specialization with extra points while trying to specialize in something else. Also, this would make people just starting out in the feral tree have an easy time picking talents.

Your point concerning Ravage is null and void even compared to blue posts. First of all, that's like saying druids will drop Feral Charge to get damage-boosting talents, when the Ravage/Feral Charge talents are damage-boosting talents. Secondly, Blizz already addressed this, roughly saying that there will be ample time for kittens to feral charge and use these talents in raid encounters. Give Blizz a little credit.

Blizz isn't going to let us hybridize our spec if they can avoid it. In the end, I see Blizz making it so tank-spec druids will potentially do more damage (or the same damage) in bear than going kitty, while on the flip side kitty druids will gain little/nothing in terms of being able to tank with a kitty spec. It's right there in the blue post, they won't let us cherry-pick our way to a hybrid spec... they've already said via blue posts they're avoiding it with other classes. Expect to gain little or no benefit once you specialize into tanking or DPS core talents.

[Cortano]

It's right there in the blue post, they won't let us cherry-pick our way to a hybrid spec... they've already said via blue posts they're avoiding it with other classes.

Not at all; they are talking about going into a second tree in those posts; for example, preventing a prot tank from spending a lot points in the arms or fury tree. This is discussed largely in the context of PvP balancing; even when it is possible, a PvE hybrid really never makes as compelling a balance problem when you can just dual-spec and be 100% effective in a different role. One of the main ways they are looking at addressing the balance issues surrounding PvP hybrid builds is to bake in a lot of the talents into the basic package for a spec, put the "key" talents up high enough in the trees that they can't be cherry-picked, and remove the rest.

I really don't see them changing the nature of feral PvP so much: shifting between cat and bear is pretty fundamental to the playstyle. They can't change druids so much that the no longer feel like druids.

To recap:
- They are discussing spreading points between two talents trees
- They are talking about PvP specifically

- You are talking about points within a single talent tree
- You are talking about PvE specifically

so... not a lot of common ground.

With druids,"hybrid" takes on a new meaning, but the same word is used by Blizz for other classes

which is why paying attention to the context of the statements, reading the full threads rather than just browsing the blue tracker, makes a difference.

First of all, that's like saying druids will drop Feral Charge to get damage-boosting talents, when the Ravage/Feral Charge talents are damage-boosting talents

That's exactly my point. You will have to pick and choose among which damage talents to take. You aren't going to pick up absolutely everything. Some of the talents will be situational or just less effective than others; you will forgo less effective talents to pick up more effective talents... much as you would right now.

Going into cataclysm, a couple changes really help ferals do more than one role:
- more abilities included as part of the basic spec
- more optional 'fun' talents
- PvP talents baked into the spec
- mastery

I don't think there is any question about whether you will be able to do a hybrid spec, its mostly a question on how effective the secondary role will be. i.e., will it be 100-95 or 100-85 or 100-70?

[Cheezee]

I don't really see them making talents that will improve one aspect of a tree while making the second aspect of the tree worse. Glyphs maybe but not talents. I find it more likely that Blizz will simply add more talents that only affect one aspect instead of both. Just because the talent trees will only have 7 tiers doesn't mean each tier below #7 can't have 3-4 actual talents in it. All this while making 5-10 points in the balance or resto trees very tempting for a feral. Right now you can put 71 points into the feral tree if you want but you miss out on Imp. MotW, NSS/MSS, Naturalist and Omen. Who knows what you'll miss out on in Cata if you put 41 points into the feral tree. Blizz has already acknowledged that they will have failed if this becomes the norm.

Cortano, if you've acknowledged that there is no need for a hybrid spec then why do you keep advocating for one?

[Cortano]

Cortano, if you've acknowledged that there is no need for a hybrid spec then why do you keep advocating for one?

I think its mostly interesting as an exercise; like making a build that is both good on raids and in PvP. It doesn't have a lot of use on a 25-man raid with consistent attenders, where specialization is the key to early progress, but for smaller guilds having someone who can fill in multiple ways really helps get things moving. It isn't something that fits all play styles, but I think it fits the needs of many of players, and it is a fun way to play a druid, because you can do different things.

To put it another way: before the warcry buff, you had to be utterly, ruthlessly focused to kill the Lich King. For guilds working on him right now, the biggest problem isn't totally focused players, it is getting enough people of the right classes to raids.

[bûshnak]

Still work in progress I know, but since there's a post on a new beta build and updated talent trees I wanted to write a quick reply.

Checked the talent tree as it is now and I'm stunned how many fillers/pvp/bear talents you have to pick as feral dps;
1 point infected wounds
4 points spread between thick hide/naturing instinct/survival instinct

And when you've put 2 points in blessing of the grove you got 8 points over which you can't put in anything that will actually affect your dps. Must say that I'm a bit worried to be honest

[Cerus]

Still work in progress I know, but since there's a post on a new beta build and updated talent trees I wanted to write a quick reply.

Checked the talent tree as it is now and I'm stunned how many fillers/pvp/bear talents you have to pick as feral dps;
1 point infected wounds
4 points spread between thick hide/naturing instinct/survival instinct

And when you've put 2 points in blessing of the grove you got 8 points over which you can't put in anything that will actually affect your dps. Must say that I'm a bit worried to be honest

http://www.wowtal.com/#k=fv4sNBk6v.9ob.druid

No filler, PvP or Bear talents (PF will more than likely get it's x2 CP in the tooltip back) with 5 points remaining for fun talents. Those extra points for whatever you might like is the intended design.

But FYI - it's still very much in beta.

[xGLxAnubis]

...Blizz isn't going to let us hybridize our spec if they can avoid it...

The current talent tree would like to have a word with you...

http://www.wowtal.com/#k=fBvBO3pt.9ob.druid

This build allows for max Cat form DPS, with full bear form tanking potential. The ONLY 'tanking' talent not picked up was -6% spell damage, and the only cat form talent not picked up was the 100% Crit chance to ravage on targets above 90%, which seems like a marginal DPS increase at best.

With this spec you'd be able to DPS at 99% potential, and Tank at 98% potential (100% for fights where magic damage is a non-issue). A fair trade to be able to do both very effectively.

[Cerus]

The current talent tree would like to have a word with you...

http://www.wowtal.com/#k=fBvBO3pt.9ob.druid

This build allows for max Cat form DPS, with full bear form tanking potential. The ONLY 'tanking' talent not picked up was -6% spell damage, and the only cat form talent not picked up was the 100% Crit chance to ravage on targets above 90%, which seems like a marginal DPS increase at best.

With this spec you'd be able to DPS at 99% potential, and Tank at 98% potential (100% for fights where magic damage is a non-issue). A fair trade to be able to do both very effectively.

First - still beta.
Second - you can hybrid on live but like your build here - you're missing key talents that you've dismissed to easily.

PS you dismiss because it seems like a marginal DPS increase. Well since Improved Feral charge and Ravage are buggered atm how exactly are you making that determination?

Why don't we just wait a few weeks and see how they evolve the talent trees before we jump to conclusion k?

[bûshnak]

No filler, PvP or Bear talents (PF will more than likely get it's x2 CP in the tooltip back) with 5 points remaining for fun talents. That extra points for whatever you might like is the intended design.

Well if primal fury will get the 2 cp back sure, else it is very much a bear talent :P Also brutal impact which let you use pounce more often (PvP)
Other than that, sure I know it's beta but still wanted to point that out

[Cerus]

BI also makes the Cat "kick" viable in PvE raiding. If interrupts are needed and your a Kitty druid you will be taking that talent.

[Nathanyel]

I don't think wowtal has really updated the druid talents yet (if there were any changes at all) *edit* seems the only change to the Feral tree was moving Feral Swiftness to Tier 1. None of the promised tooltip fixes.

with 5 points remaining for fun talents.

Indeed, Blessing of the Grove sure is mandatory, but Natural Shapeshifter is not, PvE-wise (the reason we're taking it now is because it opens up the axed Master Shapeshifter) especially as KotJ will have another cost reduction as currently on live, blue already said this was just forgotten for the new KotJ.
Nurturing Instinct, however, I'd consider pretty mandatory for PvE anyway, especially since the aoe reduction of Predatory Instincts is gone.
The three remaining points are free to go into Pred. Strikes - though I'd take that over IW, anyway -, Survival Instincts, Natural Shapeshifter, or even Perseverance, just for the sake of PvE survivability.

That extra points for whatever you might like is the intended design.

Amen.

[Cortano]

Why don't we just wait a few weeks and see how they evolve the talent trees before we jump to conclusion k?

Especially given how BADLY the current implementation sucks.
I really wish Blizzard would give a clue what our new rotations / play style will be

Faerie Fire
I hate having to spend rage/gcds on a stackable debuff. I hate that it costs rage. I particularly hate that it costs more rage than we get by shifting. I hate that we lose a useful ability and gain a debuff that we hope someone else will be applying instead.

Maul / Mangle / Lacerate / Pulverize
What is going on with our bear rotation? Why do we need Maul? What is another basic attack doing for us? Its either going to overshadow Mangle/Lacerate, in which case we start a fight mangle, lacerate*5, FF*3, refresh mangle .... and THEN we start using an Maul? refreshing timers on multiple debuffs sucks. If the debuffs aren't worthwhile, then we become one-button tanks.

and how does pulverize work with this? Either lacerate-pulverize will be good, or pulverize won't be worth giving up a lacerate stack for, so we lacerate-maul-maintain stack, or just maul if its as effective. one way or the other, we have too many similar abilities and one or more will be useless.

Feral Cats
A lot of good things here. I really am curious how the KotJ - feral charge - ravage spam every 30 seconds work. I think there is a lot of possibility for a VERY cool rotation with the normal mangle/rake/shred/rip and then every 30 seconds ravaging. Feral Bites as a finisher.

Feral charge cat MUST have its minimum range removed, or the ravage spam added to "tiger's fury" instead or it just becomes a gimmick. (You lose too much DPS running away, and then leaping back.)

[kohrin]

Especially given how BADLY the current implementation sucks.
I really wish Blizzard would give a clue what our new rotations / play style will be

Faerie Fire
I hate having to spend rage/gcds on a stackable debuff. I hate that it costs rage. I particularly hate that it costs more rage than we get by shifting. I hate that we lose a useful ability and gain a debuff that we hope someone else will be applying instead.

Maul / Mangle / Lacerate / Pulverize
What is going on with our bear rotation? Why do we need Maul? What is another basic attack doing for us? Its either going to overshadow Mangle/Lacerate, in which case we start a fight mangle, lacerate*5, FF*3, refresh mangle .... and THEN we start using an Maul? refreshing timers on multiple debuffs sucks. If the debuffs aren't worthwhile, then we become one-button tanks.

and how does pulverize work with this? Either lacerate-pulverize will be good, or pulverize won't be worth giving up a lacerate stack for, so we lacerate-maul-maintain stack, or just maul if its as effective. one way or the other, we have too many similar abilities and one or more will be useless.

Feral Cats
A lot of good things here. I really am curious how the KotJ - feral charge - ravage spam every 30 seconds work. I think there is a lot of possibility for a VERY cool rotation with the normal mangle/rake/shred/rip and then every 30 seconds ravaging. Feral Bites as a finisher.

Feral charge cat MUST have its minimum range removed, or the ravage spam added to "tiger's fury" instead or it just becomes a gimmick. (You lose too much DPS running away, and then leaping back.)

Seems very likely that the modified feral charge is a pvp talent intended to allow you to punish kiters and rapidly switch and pressure targets.

[Deleted]

The current talent tree would like to have a word with you...

...

This build allows for max Cat form DPS, with full bear form tanking potential. The ONLY 'tanking' talent not picked up was -6% spell damage, and the only cat form talent not picked up was the 100% Crit chance to ravage on targets above 90%, which seems like a marginal DPS increase at best.

With this spec you'd be able to DPS at 99% potential, and Tank at 98% potential (100% for fights where magic damage is a non-issue). A fair trade to be able to do both very effectively.

Unless I missed something there is no tank potential at all since feral is now lacking a crit immunity talent.

[Nathanyel]

Unless I missed something there is no tank potential at all since feral is now lacking a crit immunity talent.

That's supposed to be folded into Natural Reaction.

[Deleted]

That's supposed to be folded into Natural Reaction.

Hmm so it seem that the tooltips are not updated on the talent calculators... >_>

[Cerus]

Hmm so it seem that the tooltips are not updated on the talent calculators... >_>

It's not the calculators - it's how they are in beta. And as far as I know it's supposed to be as simple as shifting into Bear form.

Especially given how BADLY the current implementation sucks.
I really wish Blizzard would give a clue what our new rotations / play style will be

Faerie Fire
I hate having to spend rage/gcds on a stackable debuff. I hate that it costs rage. I particularly hate that it costs more rage than we get by shifting. I hate that we lose a useful ability and gain a debuff that we hope someone else will be applying instead.

Maul / Mangle / Lacerate / Pulverize
What is going on with our bear rotation? Why do we need Maul? What is another basic attack doing for us? Its either going to overshadow Mangle/Lacerate, in which case we start a fight mangle, lacerate*5, FF*3, refresh mangle .... and THEN we start using an Maul? refreshing timers on multiple debuffs sucks. If the debuffs aren't worthwhile, then we become one-button tanks.

and how does pulverize work with this? Either lacerate-pulverize will be good, or pulverize won't be worth giving up a lacerate stack for, so we lacerate-maul-maintain stack, or just maul if its as effective. one way or the other, we have too many similar abilities and one or more will be useless.

Feral Cats
A lot of good things here. I really am curious how the KotJ - feral charge - ravage spam every 30 seconds work. I think there is a lot of possibility for a VERY cool rotation with the normal mangle/rake/shred/rip and then every 30 seconds ravaging. Feral Bites as a finisher.

Feral charge cat MUST have its minimum range removed, or the ravage spam added to "tiger's fury" instead or it just becomes a gimmick. (You lose too much DPS running away, and then leaping back.)

I'm pretty much playing the wait and see game on Druids - Feral in particular. The only mechanic I completely hate is FFF costing rage. However I fully believe that Blizzard would not allow us to be the only tanking class without a viable pulling mechanic.

As for Pulverize - I'm sure Blizzard is well aware of the concerns over it and more than likely has something in store for it.

[Nathanyel]

And as far as I know it's supposed to be as simple as shifting into Bear form.

Twitter Dev Chat:

Q: Any plan to make "Crit Immunity" passive from choosing a tank tree instead of spending talents on it?
A. No, and you can blame the druids. We want a tanking specialization in Bear Form to feel different from a DPS specialization in Cat Form, otherwise it doesn’t feel fair to other classes when the Feral druid can do everything with the same talent specialization. We try to put crit immunity in talents you would normally take.

Especially because of us, crit immunity must be talented.

[phenom568]

In the current build...yes beta i know.....you can be both a tank and kitty...to many talent points you dont have any use for right now.