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  1. #1

    Repost: Hunter Concerns

    I am not the OP but he brings up some valid points. Thought I'd link it here. Credit to Angris.

    I won't trash the focus system at this point, cuz it's completely broken and I think after some adjustments it will work out fine.

    Tranq shot should really be put back on cd and not use focus.

    Chimera vs. Arcane

    Chimera is still on a horribly long CD and using a venom/sting before it drains 30 focus and adds zero damage to chimera. On quest/trash mobs, using SS is pointless because even though chimera refreshes it, the mob dies too quick to matter.

    While arcane shot has no CD at all and can be fired twice with a full focus bar. Rapid Recup essentially fills your focus bar when you get a killing blow, therefor, if you can kill your target with 2 arcanes and an auto, your focvus bar will be at 100% when it dies.

    On any trash/quest mobs you can now spam arcane shots and do more dps than any other rotation/priority. Chimera doesn't receive any damage bonus from venoms/stings so it is now a utility shot, and only used situationally in PVP and gimmick boss fights. Arcane shot is not the premier shot of the MM tree.


    Earlier in the new water zone, I literally just spun circles and spammed the arcane shot key and killed over 60 mobs in less than a minute.


    Venoms/ Serpent Sting

    I'm really not crazy about having a venom and a sting. It's just something else to waste a gcd on and watch the duration of. I think a better solution would be to add a damage component to one of the venoms and eliminate SS altogether.

    My reasoning is that for PVE situations hunters at lvl 80 already use 3 gcd's for setting up a fight (Hunter's mark, SS, and Misdirect). The addition of venoms while keeping SS is essentially adding a 4th gcd to our setup and something additional to monitor and refresh throughout the fight.

    They aren't horrible, but definately not fun. On any low-hp mob (not a boss) I find myself choosing between a venom or a sting because its less dps to waste a gcd casting both. Also, as mentioned above, because chimera receives no damage bonus from any sting/venom, I find myself reaching for the arcane shot button and ignoring chimera in PVE.

    Aspects

    Aspect of the Fox is pretty lackluster. Hunters have been wanting a self-heal for a long time, and I was hoping the aspect system would be used to give us one instead of just giving it to one tree.

    I understand that the dev's wanted to create a second PVE aspect to switch to, but as of now it's almost exactly the same as the original viper, and we will spend the entire fight in fox, never using dragonhawk again. If we are to use focus, and the bar gets drained after 2 specials, the old goal of having us swap aspects throughout the fight just simply won't apply to this "rogue" style of playing.

    My suggestion would have been to create:

    Aspect of the Mongoose: granting 30% increased movement speed, and the hunter is healed for 10% of the damage caused by any special ability, but the hunter only does 50% damage.


    This gives us a PVP kiting and healing aspect, a nice healing aspect for PVE, place a damage-dealing effect on widow venom, and once the focus system works better, the hunter should have to manage it rather than have a fall-back aspect.

    Another note on aspects: we really need to be allowed to swap aspects while mounted, and only allow aspects to be cancelled by other aspects so we don't hit the wrong button and end up aspect-less (like stances). As of now, hunters have to use a macro slot on all aspects and place a "!" so that we aren't cancelling out our aspects constantly.

    Trap Launcher

    Great ability, but completely useless until it's taken off the GCD.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Overall weve gained 2 casted spells, lost an instant cast, and have a second dot to keep refreshed. In addition we've gained several new keybinds when we were already severely overwhelmed by them.

    I don't know about other hunter's but I have to use a steelseries merc keyboard just to be able to use all of my necessary spells. The class is still playable on a normal keyboard, but not to it's fullest.


    Those are my thoughts so far. I could be wrong about all of this stuff, cuz these are just ramblings and grumbles after levelling to 81.
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...16735&sid=2000

  2. #2
    Warchief Thereign's Avatar
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    I actually learned a fair amount from reading that, especially seeing how Venoms were mildly useless in PvE. I am interested to see if chimera is as useless as he says in PvE, because if it was, it is a pretty stupid 51/31 point talent in my eyes, and we can scrap a point from that.

    I don't know if I can agree with putting trap launcher off the GCD however, as traps are on the GCD as it is, as well as freezing arrow. That seems counter-intuitive.

  3. #3
    @Thereign the trap thing is because, right now when you use trap launcher, you use a GCD, just to activate the ability, then picking a trap activates another GCD, so you use two globals just to fire one trap lol.. pretty stupid.
    Destruction!

  4. #4
    ^

    Trap Launcher works different. First you have to use it = 1gcd then u have to chose a trap and aim it - triggers 2nd gcd.

    OP:
    I believe he should judge it just by leveling experience.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Thereign View Post
    I actually learned a fair amount from reading that, especially seeing how Venoms were mildly useless in PvE. I am interested to see if chimera is as useless as he says in PvE, because if it was, it is a pretty stupid 51/31 point talent in my eyes, and we can scrap a point from that.
    A definite concern. For one, putting our healing skill in one tree and not available for all (especially the perpetually token "PvP tree" seems narrow minded at best. If Chimera isn't going to do anything other than hit harder than an auto shot, its a waste of focus. It acts like Crusader strike - an on command auto shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thereign View Post
    I don't know if I can agree with putting trap launcher off the GCD however, as traps are on the GCD as it is, as well as freezing arrow. That seems counter-intuitive.
    What the guy above me said. Two GCDs to drop a trap is pointless. Perhaps you click the launcher, click the trap you want and THEN click the ground where the reticule is and that triggers a GCD. This would allow you to simply do away with the launcher and macro your traps.

    #showtooltip Frost Trap
    /cast Trap Launcher
    /cast Frost Trap

    Also /wave from a fellow Dallasite.

  6. #6
    Well if it stays the same.. my plan to level a goblin hunter to 85 (rerolling my hunter), will go epicly fast
    Destruction!

  7. #7
    ]^

    Trap Launcher works different. First you have to use it = 1gcd then u have to chose a trap and aim it - triggers 2nd gcd.

    OP:
    I believe he should judge it just by leveling experience.

  8. #8
    So whats the point of this trap launcher? not only does it seem same to freezing arrow but now uses two gcd? is this a joke. I was hoping that you actually just shoot the target and the trap hits them.

  9. #9
    Warchief Thereign's Avatar
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    It is odd for it to use 2 GCDs, although it might be a way for blizzard to entice us to not only use it, although that is silly to me.

  10. #10
    I really disapprove of any aspect that reduces damage output. Viper is really, really awful right now, and being "forced" to switch to "viper" in Cataclysm would be too.

  11. #11
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    One thing this poster may or may not have known at the time of his(or her) post is that talents are going to be torn up and spit back up within the next month. Rapid recup? It may be gone and placed with "Chimera shot does 9000% damage and offers 1000% focus regen, and costs no focus". Basically the trees aren't even AT 1% done just because we are still on the current trees. I also would not worry about chimera being overshadowed by arcane, it will more then likely be your 31st talent(level 70), and by the end of the beta I'm sure it'll be back to hitting like a truck. And if it isn't, there are bigger things to worry about then one class being broken, all the classes will be.

    And now while questing, in WotLK did you cast SS on every quest mob you had? If you did I imagine you went OOM every half a kill quest done. Quests are tuned low enough where a couple auto shots and a chim/aimed/kill command will more then likely take that mob out. SS is designed to be used when it's useful, and even a 15 second trash pull usually isn't worth it because a steady will provide more DPS in those 15 seconds.

    Oh no, you have to waste a GCD to help your raid(and consequently yourself) out? Aww, is that 50 dps you lost really upsetting you? Seriously lol, so now Hunter's gain a bunch of unique buffs, but what you're worried about is that one global. Hunter's mark shouldn't even be considered a global, unless you wait till the tank to pulls to cast it. Misdirect is there to help the tank and yourself out, now you can go all out without having to worry about your agro, so it actually increases your DPS by a significant amount, good use of a GCD. And SS stacks up over time, MM even have the awesome ability of being able to refresh it without having to manually cast SS, so unless your crying about Chim while being another spec, you do not have to use a GCD to refresh SS. On a low mob you shouldn't even be bothering to cast a SS or venom, it's a waste of focus. As it would be a waste of mana in today's current environment, this ability is about its effect over a long time.

    If Chimera shot is not benefiting from venom's and SS, like the tool-tip says it should be, guess what? /bugreport

    I do not know about you, but fox does not sound at ALL like viper. It's what viper would be if we did full damage while in viper. Since aspects are off the GCD, in a fight you can easily switch between Hawk and Fox(Simple macro here), even if you only have to move for aprox 2 seconds, that's a good auto shot and like 10-15 focus regened. And mind you your at 100% power in fox, so what, you lose the AP bonus of hawk for those two seconds, but you gained that auto shot and focus which will in the end give you another shot, and help you not miss auto shots. Leading to more uptime in a fight and allowing more over all dps. I can see your point, but the feedback you should be giving is "can we have a self-heal in an aspect?", not "let's tear apart a good aspect like fox just because I seen no way I could possibly use it."

    Fox IS the PvP kiting aspect, why you would possibly want your DPS lowered by 50% so you can have a self heal is beyond me. From your post I allude your MM, and chim procs a self heal, so uhhh, why are you crying about a self heal?

    Trap launcher I can't really comment about, but the abilities it does give you are quite unique and effective. A GCD for say a CC or a DPS burst doesn't seem much to me.

    Just seems like the OP is jaded at losing mana and not being able to have every GCD be a personal DPS increase for him(or her)self. I don't know, that's my rebuttal on this. And remember, it's beta, so if your privileged enough to be in it, give some feedback dammit.

    TL;DR - I don't see eye to eye with the OP

  12. #12
    Fluffy Kitten ASO's Avatar
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    Gonna go ahead and ask you don't repost opinion posts unless you have to, or have something new to add.

    All of this guys experience are with level 80ish gear, in questing and leveling situations. So what? They don't matter at all. The dev team says more or less they don't really put a lot of time into "is this balanced while leveling?" unless something is grossly out of whack. Just because you can kill everything with an Auto and Arcane Shot, doesn't mean something is wrong.

    As for the Focus regen, unless they changed it, it benefits from Haste, and you probably don't have a whole lot of that right now. Again, they balanced it around that...

    As for the Aspect thing, is there any proof that your Focus regen is better in Fox than in Dhawk with Steady Shot usage?

    Finally, the Venoms aren't supposed to be a definite gotta-cast on a boss. They're intended to do what they tried to do in WOTLK, mainly give the hunter some extra utility like sunder, mind-numbing poison, etc. No need to ever use any of them in a full group since somebody is probably going to be bringing one (though I can see rogues insisting you mind-numbing venom so they don't have to lose a poison, but it's one GCD, and who knows if it affects bosses).
    "WoW is a game about upgrading your stuff." - Ghostcrawler

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    anachronistic hypocrites
    Oh noes! We're time traveling hypocrites!

  13. #13
    I agree 100% the Hunter class has not slimmed down it has gotten fatter. Almost every one of our spells are circumstantial. It is absolutely ridiculous. This, is why I am rerolling a new class.

    I am tired of the people bitching about hunters being OP as I kite people in pvp and I spend half my time waiting on a CD just because Blizz doesn't care to make the class more intuitive.

    From what I have see of the hunter class so far is we are a Rogue + Pet - Stuns + range - 5 yrds.
    Also, the way I see Venoms working is if they allow hunters to use venoms on the Bows (like rouge poisons)

    so far the Hunter class is disgusting to me after playing it 5 years and every expansion getting new spells that you only use 3% of the time. I will probably re-roll a Mage, Warlock, or Shaman. (lets face it Mages, Locks, and shamans have more survivability in PVP than hunters. They also do my DPS in PVE because blizzard buffs them and only nerfed hunters throughout WotLK)

    Yes, I am QQ'n. Mostly because I feel the hunter community has been forgotten by blizzard.

  14. #14
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    I've read everyone's replies here and honestly it's depressing. My main is a resto shaman, my alt is a prot pally. Don't flame me and say it's still just in beta, based on what I'm hearing and seeing, changing my alt from prot pally to hunter is looking like a no go. Hunters are getting a lot of unique abilities that they really won't use a lot unless you're talking about the bm tree.


    I do have a question though, my apologies if I missed it, but don't auto shots cost focus. I read a few times in this thread that you could still to auto shot but it seemed as though you didn't have focus. Auto shot does indeed cost focus correct?
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verita vita View Post
    I do have a question though, my apologies if I missed it, but don't auto shots cost focus. I read a few times in this thread that you could still to auto shot but it seemed as though you didn't have focus. Auto shot does indeed cost focus correct?
    I wouldn't think so, rogues and kitties don't use energy to auto attack, so why would hunters use focus to auto shot?

  16. #16
    Why on earth do hunters need self-heals? That's ridiculous. Tanks and melee benefit from them from the shear lack of balance between melee dmg taken vs. ranged dmg taken. If blizz starts making encounters where you bleed out as much for being 40 yards away then ok.

  17. #17
    I agree with this dude, its what I've been saying since beta videos came out and why I've been getting chewed up on these forums. I'm glad someone else can see it...
    "Druid must be boss, Hunter is just Drain-monkey.

    Hunter scatter this rogue.
    Hunter drain that priest.
    Hunter where is frost trap. Bad Hunter! No banana!
    Hunter where is flare? No flare, you get replaced by retarded warrior!"

    -Huainy

  18. #18
    This guy hyperbole much?

    First off bs on the arcane shot killed 60 mobs in less than 60 secs he said it takes 2 globals of it to kill a quest mob at least so that is more like 3 or 4 minutes with travel time.

    Trap launcher is useful even on gcd as you can toss in an explosive trap for aoe or toss back a frost trap for kiting etc.

    Also in a pve situation you should be setting up your md and hunters mark pre pull as neither are required to be in autoshot range to use.

    And having leveled for a while as marks when you use chim it is generally a waste to apply ss any way as everything dies in a chim as arcs.

    That being said there is definitely tweaking and fixing needed but nothing to worry overly about.

  19. #19
    I really can't buy much of what this guy is saying.

    -If Chimera isn't hitting as hard as Arcane then that's a concern, but one that would take three seconds to change.

    -Fox does not out-Focus being able to stand still and use Steady/Cobra Shot in Hawk. Fox is not the new Viper. Fox is primarily a new PvP Aspect that will have situational usage in PvE when you have to run really far.

    -Unspecced utility costs DPS. Let's take Rogues as a base example. The class can Expose Armor, Mind Numbing Poison, Wound Poison, Anesthetic Poison, Kick, and Tricks. All of these things cost the class DPS to utilize. Hunters can do Scorpid Venom, Viper Venom, Widow Venom, Tranq Shot, and Misdirection. What a surprise, these things also cost DPS to do! By comparison most specced utility doesn't cost DPS usually. For instance, Arms Warriors can bring Mortal Strike at no personal DPS cost but it's not something the whole class can do.

    -The OP's rant on Serpent Sting makes no sense. It's a DoT. When mobs die fast you don't DoT them. What an incredible insight.

    -I don't think Trap Launcher is useless on the GCD, but I do think it'd make more sense to be off of it. But perhaps that's a balance concern I don't understand. Another option would be if there were a Survival talent that did this.

    -About the only thing I do agree with is that Hunters have too many keybinds. I like how much a good Hunter can bring to the table, but it does seem like we've got a tad too many abilities.
    Last edited by Neichus; 2010-07-09 at 06:15 PM. Reason: Clarification

  20. #20
    All due respect to everyone here - the "wait and see, its still beta" mentality is sort of pointless. If all we did was "wait and see" then there'd be nothing to discuss and no point to these forums. I understand there's elements of the OP that are going to change, but as I read it, many of his concerns are not issues of balance that change as you level but rather fundamental mechanics of the class that need work.

    The things he does bring up regarding two shotting mobs with arcane shot IS important. No the game isn't balanced around leveling, however the game's leveling process is being completely reworked not to mention our class resource mechanic is being overhauled from the ground up. I think input regarding how we level is important for this expansion.

    As far as Trap Launcher goes, two GCDs seems overkill to me. A mage doesn't require two to sheep someone, a rogue doesn't require two to blind, a paladin doesn't use two to repentance. Why are we being penalized? Is it because we're launching a trap instead of dropping it at our feet? Maybe. If so - bump the focus cost. Make it cost a full bar of focus to launch a trap (launcher + trap cost). But the time it takes to do so shouldn't be penalized.

    -The OP's rant on Serpent Sting makes no sense. It's a DoT. When mobs die fast you don't DoT them. What an incredible insight.
    My reasoning is that for PVE situations hunters at lvl 80 already use 3 gcd's for setting up a fight (Hunter's mark, SS, and Misdirect). The addition of venoms while keeping SS is essentially adding a 4th gcd to our setup and something additional to monitor and refresh throughout the fight.
    This was his chief complaint, and a valid one. Consider mobs like Saurfang. He isn't active to start. This means the fight begins and mages, rogues, warlocks, spriests - everyone is winding up their DPS from the get go. What do we do? First we mark. No damage. Next we venom. No damage. Utility? Sure. NOW we get to add sting and then begin our shots. That's 3 seconds of time putting us behind everyone else. I don't think streamlining this is too much to ask for.

    Also in a pve situation you should be setting up your md and hunters mark pre pull as neither are required to be in autoshot range to use.
    Some mobs don't allow for you to pre-mark. This is a setback. Adding to this by requiring a venom to be put up seems unnecessarily cumbersome.

    Why on earth do hunters need self-heals? That's ridiculous.
    Its part of streamlining the leveling process, first. It helps to reduce downtime. Rogues get a self heal, warriors have had one. I think you can glyph Evocate to restore health as well as mana. Warlocks have had drain life for a long time. Death Knights have Death Strike. Every other class has a healing tree.

    Secondly, by allowing pure classes to self heal (and only self heal) it allows Blizzard to increase the damage of hybrids to the level of pures. The fact that they can heal is no longer a benefit available only to themselves.
    Last edited by aznthecapn; 2010-07-10 at 12:19 AM.

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