Why do ppl like Mary sues, but hate dynamic characters

[damntree]

I mostly hate Varian because he has blood elf hair.

[Tylanir]

I don't hate it because blood elves have it, I hate it because it belongs in Dragonball and Naruto

[writhe666]

You say that Thrall isn't a big part of the story? That's definitely wrong. He's a small part of the story IF YOU'VE NEVER PLAYED THE ORIGINAL WARCRAFT SERIES. In WoW, he doesn't do all that much because WoW takes place (for the most part) after Warcraft 3. Thrall was a key character in the Warcraft series, and he should never be thought of so little.

[Kucedon]

Sorry. Maybe it's just my opinion, but it seems to me that you hate all the characters that want peace. Know that, while I like Thrall and Jaina, I do like Varian and Garrosh.

Thrall and Jaina, by far, are not Mary Sues. They were major players in Warcraft lore and are still seen as icons by players.
They too have their own flaws. Thrall, as said above, can lose himself to rage. There's the fight with Garrosh and the attack on Durnholde Keep to name a few. Jaina let's her emotions get in her way a lot of the time. The Halls of Reflection, anyone?
As for why players like such characters? Simple, they are just likable in more ways than one. And wouldn't WoW get kind of boring if every single character was like Garrosh or Varian (or any other character for that matter)?

I believe you don't know what a Mary Sue is. Let me elaborate.

A Mary Sue or Marty Sue if it is a male needs to have the following "qualities" to be considered as such:

1) they have a tragic past.
2) every plot revolves around the mary sue
3) everbody loves Mary sue except for the villain who hates mary sue but for all the wrong reasons.
4) they are usually 'the chosen one'.
5) they have funny or otherwise hilarious flaws that makes everybody giggle in sheer delight.
6) mary sues come equipped with tools (or in WoW magics/blessings) for every situation.
7) they are too good for the evils of the world.

and there are many more. If you search up what has been established as canon by the makers of the story, Jaina, Thrall and Rhonin qualify for all stated 7 facts without flaw.
That makes them a mary sue and that is what I utterly hate and dislike about them.

[Daginni]

Just as long as we can actually see Varian, Garrosh and other leaders actually doing shit besides being /afk at their respective Throne-rooms waiting for a Horde Raid, its fine by me. Seriously, I got very little impact from them in WoW, I wanted them out of the city helping me kick ass and take names like they would be in the any of the Warcraft RTS games.

[Sidonis]

Garrosh dynamic? More like multiple personality disorder. He went from emo depression over a dozen years of misinformation about his father then doing a 180 and becoming super aggressive asshole for no reason. He doesn't even have a valid reason to hate the Alliance, considering that his father while leading the Warsong Clan was one of the few never to spend time in the Lordaeron Internment Camps.

There is no traumatic event in his life caused by the Alliance, yet he runs around squawking like someone in the Alliance killed his sister and raped his horse because he has some immature notion that what he's doing is how his father (whom he never really knew) would have done things. It's like watching a child swear without really using it in context, because that's how the child believes adults behave amongst themselves.

-IF- there had been some traumatic event caused by the Alliance against Garrosh or someone he cared deeply about between Thrall revealing the truth about Grom's sacrifice and him arriving in Orgrimmar pre-WotLK then there would be good flow and would actually show a depth to his character. However, there was never any such event, it just happened without any reason provided whatsoever. One day he's emo, the next he's super aggressive asshole.

[XepNes]

Thrall,Jiana....Rhonin(cause i had to say) all mary sue characters

what i want to know is

why hate garrosh he adds to the plot (unless ur alliance)
why hate varian he adds to the plot (unless ur horde)

I never understood how Rhonin ever got to be mary sue character...

Garrosh, I hate him since hes a military tyrant, I also love him since he is one.
varian, I love his part in the lore, I dont hate him in any particularly way actuly...

---------- Post added 2010-07-10 at 09:13 AM ----------

I believe you don't know what a Mary Sue is. Let me elaborate.

A Mary Sue or Marty Sue if it is a male needs to have the following "qualities" to be considered as such:

1) they have a tragic past.
2) every plot revolves around the mary sue
3) everbody loves Mary sue except for the villain who hates mary sue but for all the wrong reasons.
4) they are usually 'the chosen one'.
5) they have funny or otherwise hilarious flaws that makes everybody giggle in sheer delight.
6) mary sues come equipped with tools (or in WoW magics/blessings) for every situation.
7) they are too good for the evils of the world.

and there are many more. If you search up what has been established as canon by the makers of the story, Jaina, Thrall and Rhonin qualify for all stated 7 facts without flaw.
That makes them a mary sue and that is what I utterly hate and dislike about them.

Rhonin never had a tragic past, unless a team killer is accounted for. The plot doesnt revolve around him, not everyone loves Rhonin (his ass rly is sexy, Belive it!), Hes not chosen one, he's just one of the few humans Krasus trusts, unless he killed some team mates in the past is something to laugh at, the fact doesnt fit him. He doesnt really get equipped with anything, except communication devices. He has never beaten anything on his own, except goblins, trolls and team mates.

[Kimmy]

I believe you don't know what a Mary Sue is. Let me elaborate.

A Mary Sue or Marty Sue if it is a male needs to have the following "qualities" to be considered as such:

1) they have a tragic past.
2) every plot revolves around the mary sue
3) everbody loves Mary sue except for the villain who hates mary sue but for all the wrong reasons.
4) they are usually 'the chosen one'.
5) they have funny or otherwise hilarious flaws that makes everybody giggle in sheer delight.
6) mary sues come equipped with tools (or in WoW magics/blessings) for every situation.
7) they are too good for the evils of the world.

and there are many more. If you search up what has been established as canon by the makers of the story, Jaina, Thrall and Rhonin qualify for all stated 7 facts without flaw.
That makes them a mary sue and that is what I utterly hate and dislike about them.

Thrall and Jaina don't fit #2, #3 and #6. Their parts in WC3 weren't the "main" ones (IIRC Arthas was the main guy in both, going from shiny hero in WC3 to 'RAWR I Scourge you nao' in TFT). They're definitely not loved by everybody, and neither is uber-powerful.

I'd say these two suffer from lousy writing more than anything in WoW. All Jaina does is cry for one reason or another (I haven't read the comic, so if she does anything memorable there, my bad.) Thrall does a bit more (going to meet Garrosh, helping in Battle for Undercity, w/e) but he's definitely not a major player in any plot besides those two.

Now Garrosh, there's an interesting character. As a long-time player I remembered him from Nagrand, and all of a sudden saw him make his appearence in WotLK and was all like "WTF did he come from!?" at first. My take on him going all war-mongering is that he probably wants to be as 'heroic' as Grom was, and since he's so eager to prove himself he jumps to every opportunity he sees. From what I read about Cataclysm, we'll see a rather interesting transformation soon...

[quintoon]

people in general tend to be more willing to fall into line behind the docile leader if not forced into line by the agressive leader first, unless of course they are scared enough of said agressive leader before given a chance to choose

[hanabichan]

List of things Rhonin has done:
He tragically killed his friends with a fireball, and it has haunted him ever since.
He speaks Raptor. Yes, Raptor. He learned to speak to raptors and used them as an army.
He married a high elf, something never done in WoW lore from what I understand.
He had the first ever set of half elven twins.
He freed Alexstrazsa from Deathwing.
He went back in time to:
Become Illidan Stormrage's mentor.
Take control of the moonguard when Illidan deflected.
Single handedly outmagic a whole bunch of High Elves.
Become friends with Malfurion Stormrage, Tyrande Whisperwind, Jarod, Maiev Shadowsong, and Shandris Feathermoon.
The Bronze Dragonflight let him time travel to see his wife give birth to those twins as a favor, and promised their friendship to the twins.

Essentially Rhonin was just a nominal mage with some promising talent. Once Knaak got permission to write Rhonin into the lore, he quickly became a mage demi-god that is going back in time to become a key player for every historical event. A lot of people hate Knaak and Rhonin for that. Also, his writing is terrible.


As for Varian and Garrosh, they had potential. Although Varian's backstory is a little crazy... The Garrosh in Nagrand looked like he was really grateful when Thrall showed him how Grom repented and sacrificed himself for the Orcs. He was ready to walk in his father's footstep, but all of a sudden he smelled blood and went bat sheet crazy. At least Varian's hatred towards the Horde was written a little better and is understandable, but in the end they both were warped into single-minded warmongers for the purpose of giving Blizzard and easy way to push the story forward in Cataclysm.

[bajerman]

Rhonin is now a supersaiyen and theres nothing we can do about. thats one thing that pisses me off. I think the best character Warcraft has ever offered was Medivh. Him and Grom Hellscream were my favorite despite the fact that he was bad in wc1, i remember reading his story in the manual and he was awesome.

[Deleted]

Thrall is not a Mary Sue, his storyline is far from linear.

Garrosh is not a dinamic character. He is just a plainly dumb and violent orc which all of a sudden, while keeping a dumb behaviour, says some "honorable" lines during some Cataclysm quests. This is not a dinamic character: it's just bad creative writing from Blizzard employees.

[Lorellto]

I'm no wondering... who screams terrible curses into the dark about Jaina Proudmore?

Is there some reclusive warlock on some lonely mountain top screaming at the top of their lungs, "I'LL GET YOU JAINA AND YOUR DAMNED DOG SPOT <insert random ravings that span an hour or two of constant chatter>"

I must have missed that one at least.

[XepNes]

List of things Rhonin has done:
He tragically killed his friends with a fireball, and it has haunted him ever since. Doesnt Haunt him, he just wishes the Kirin tor would forget it
He speaks Raptor. Yes, Raptor. He learned to speak to raptors and used them as an army. Source? and dont say comic or something like that
He married a high elf, something never done in WoW lore from what I understand. They never officially married, but they are together yeah
He had the first ever set of half elven twins. Which has yet to be released to the public :< I'm still waiting for somekinda clue to find them in-game
He freed Alexstrazsa from Deathwing. If you read the book, you would know he couldnt have managed without deathwings help, or krasus & co's assistance
He went back in time to: ( He was sent back in time, without realizing it after some time)
Become Illidan Stormrage's mentor. True
Take control of the moonguard when Illidan deflected. Chain of command during war, realistic and not some overpowered act
Single handedly outmagic a whole bunch of High Elves. Source?
Become friends with Malfurion Stormrage, Tyrande Whisperwind, Jarod, Maiev Shadowsong, and Shandris Feathermoon. Friends we are, friends we be, until a retard gets a 25 killing spree~ gosh im a poet :O
The Bronze Dragonflight let him time travel to see his wife give birth to those twins as a favor, and promised their friendship to the twins. If it was luck or Nozdormu who sent him to that exact point I cannot remember as its ages since i last read the book.

Essentially Rhonin was just a nominal mage with some promising talent. Once Knaak got permission to write Rhonin into the lore, he quickly became a mage demi-god that is going back in time to become a key player for every historical event. A lot of people hate Knaak and Rhonin for that. Also, his writing is terrible. He's far from a demi-god, hes a main character but the plot doesnt twist around him like some shounen manga

Fixed >.>

[Gyrllsbear]

Thrall isn't a mary sue character, neither is Jaina. Both have weaknesses, Jaina almost died in the Halls of Reflection. There isn't any characters in WoW that I actually hate, they all add something to the world. There may be characters that I dislike, but that's that's the personality that I dislike, not the very idea that the character exists. There are supposed to be characters that you don't like, wouldn't be a very interesting range of characters if you liked them all.

[Kimmy]

List of things Rhonin has done:
He tragically killed his friends with a fireball, and it has haunted him ever since. Doesnt Haunt him, he just wishes the Kirin tor would forget it - Yes it does, at least that's the impression I got at the beginning of "Day of the Dragon."

He speaks Raptor. Yes, Raptor. He learned to speak to raptors and used them as an army. Source? and dont say comic or something like that - It happens in "Night of the Dragon", where he connects telepathically with the leader of the raptors that had been attacking Menethil Harbor. I'll quote the passages from the book if you don't believe it

<Snipped>

Double-fixed.

[Arean]

Thrall is by no means a mary sue. A lot of people give off the Mary Sue vibe in WoW because it's an MMO, and thereby not a very good medium for storytelling. Try reading the books about Thrall, and you'll see this.

On the point of Garrosh, people hate him because he's easy to hate. Every part of his character during TBC and WotLK is Designed to be unlikable, which is why most people don't like him. From what has been seen from the Beta so far, Garrosh seems to be progressing, and personally I'm very excited to see what will happen to him.

Edit: On the point of Rhonin, yeah the character is pretty much a Mary sue now, but there was some depth to him when the Character was created, as some before me have stated.

[SavageJ]

Garrosh is hated by every 1 who is on the bangwagon. Varian is mainly just hated by the horde (and some alliance who want to be care bear story where every 1 holds hands and gets along and allows bs to happen like in jainas thereamore)

I dont particularly want what you're calling a "care bear story", but all throughout Wrath there have been numerous occasions where I just had to facepalm at the story behind the faction rivalry. Honestly the Scourge should have freaking won with all the stupidity flying around out there. Yes lets just go and stick our pikes up the Alliance backside in Icecrown while they're fighting OUR ENEMY! GREAT IDEA! LETS HELP OUR BIGGER ENEMY KILL OUR SMALLER ENEMY!

Arthas should totally be rockin his throne right now with all their heads. Both the Alliance and Horde seem to be written to have constant, unending supplies of manpower and life to throw away apparently though.

To me very little of the writing is any good or makes any sense and so I dont really care who's a mary sue or a dynamic character.

[JackBauerLOL]

I guess what he meant by Mary Sue is that these 3 characters are extremely boring, predictable and just plain lame. Jaina will always cry. Rhonin will always dominate something with an army of raptors and his hair alone. Thrall will always be a weak leader who thinks diplomacy is the way to go at all times.

I'm glad Thrall's gone. Hopefully Deathwing manages to survive against Rhonin for 5 seconds and kill him. Varian taps Jaina and she can be removed from every plotline for good.

[Deleted]

Varian and Garrosh aren't really as much dynamic as they are mentally unbalanced. Varian at least has some semblance of an excuse for it in the 'two Varians' story, but Garrosh... He just goes from "My daddy was a monster" to "My daddy was a hero" to "I KILL ALLIANCE DOGS" to "Hey guys, this old Orc dude told me honor is important". The first and last swings have a reason. The one inbetween doesn't. Noone knows why he became a bloodthirsty killing machine that hates all non-Horde races (some Horde ones too). Thrall and Jaina both had reasons for what they did, their character development was very plausible and believable, with no such weird swings. I'm not gonna say anything about Rhonin because I'd instantly have Knaak fans screaming how I don't know anything and only hate Knaak because it's the cool thing to do.

All in all, the 'less Sue' characters had potential, but the way they were introduced and handled just seems a bit ham-fisted to me.