new warlock talent trees, I really don't like them.

[volrat]

OK, so we were all waitin these changes, and i have to say that, at this early stage, they are quiet a delusion.

There are things that looks good, like hand of guldan, bane of havoc and imp hellfire, but in the end the new way talents work hampers enormously possibility for customization and create some personal way to play your character.

in the end, u have a max of 2 build per spec, at least as things look like now, they're tryin to sell us the "we cut off boring things", but in my eyes they're just simplifin the game to be more simple for them to balance and leave players with fewer choices, wich is the opposite an expansion should do.

Also, there are very ugly design behind some hinted mechanics, like SF in destro, or very very very stpid immolate refresh from HoG at nearly the end of demo tree.

I know this is an early stage, but from the direction they're takin, it seems they're goin to cut more then what they give in terms of deveopment depht, and doesn't seem they have a clear plan about it all ( some time ago we were expecting new talents, ability to spend in 2 trees a lot more, path of titans to add depht to end game etc...everything got cut) to make room for simplicity for them to balance/develop.

It's not you make a game grow 5 years and then say "it was all wrong, we're goin to make all different", expecially when Blizz was working in the very opposite direction for more than a year.

This is beta, truth, but the 31 talent trees is bad design, here just for designers to have simpler work, and, to the very end of any market, the customers should be the ones you're expected to work for, not employers, and you do not make a 39 bucks game expansion to be here for employers to work easier..

[Deleted]

dude, less choice? There were already cookie cutter builds and talents that were never picked.

I actually like most changes. I only miss 70% snare but maybe shadowflame will have it baseline? Anyways 2second cast time soulfire before any haste or backdraft is superb, and finally due to mana feed being low succubus will have no longer mana issues.

Also we lose 70% snare, but seriously... we get AoE knockback from succubus, whats there not to like?

[kerwyn]

Also warlock was listed as one of the classes that has had very little done with it.

[Deleted]

Also WoW started with 31 pointers and none complained

[ScorchHellfire]

I don't know... many of the talents seem to be very odd mechanics like improved soulfire or just more gimped or pointless things we are forced to take like aftermath or improved searing pain... I'm mostly just confused as to what they are expecting the destro 'rotation' to be now... I think I would rather just have the old trees back... To me they felt more meaningful in a gaining character power way unlike these new ones where gain a little bit of character power while grabbing all these extremely situational talents or the ones that seem to contradict other talents in the tree (like fire and brimstone and emberstorm)...

[nazrakin]

I, see where you are coming from, but consider that in 5 long years the game has NEVER been balanced. Classes are constantly jumping up and down the scale, perhaps a simpler talent tree is what the game needs. Most people stick to the cookie cutter specs anyway.

If there's anything I don't like it's that I still see plenty boring, and some or the fun ones are missing.

[Basmothel]

"While this is a first pass on all of the talent trees, death knight, druid, paladin, warlock, Arcane mage, and Assassination rogue trees are not as far along as other specializations."

Beta is Beta, etc.

[kerwyn]

Also WoW started with 31 pointers and none complained

And those trees were so bad that these are more functional.

[volrat]

dude, less choice? There were already cookie cutter builds and talents that were never picked.

I actually like most changes. I only miss 70% snare but maybe shadowflame will have it baseline? Anyways 2second cast time soulfire before any haste or backdraft is superb, and finally due to mana feed being low succubus will have no longer mana issues.

Also we lose 70% snare, but seriously... we get AoE knockback from succubus, whats there not to like?

We do get some nice features, but there are also loads of bad designed things in those trees..

Take the cremation talent in the end of demo tree, or the impendin doom mechanic.
My QQ is not for the new spells not enough interesting, just sayin that as things look like now, u have very few choices to how u want to develop your 85 lvl character, fewer than u have now, even if u have new spells and talents.

I was expecting something different from an expansion, and again, all these chnges looks like they're just tryin to simplify things for them to balance and work on:

If u're a destro lock, u'll be at very max 2 ways, samefor any other class, so, intead of a vast gaming experience it is goin to look like an old arcade game, where u choose the chracter and then it grows the same way for everybody.

More, i have to say that this way is in the opposite direction from what they were talkin about from Blizzcon to 2 months ago, leading to make me think they do not know what exactly are doin, like the RID thing on forums...they seem to proceed blindly, throwin things and then retiring, promising and then deny everything.

Sure, there are some new thing that is pretty interesting, but in the general look of the game and character progress, it seems more like a reduction to me, but this is imho, clearly, and this is beta in the end, so we will see, but this habit to trash everything good they were planning for this expansion do not promise well....

[kerwyn]

The thing is, there really isn't any more or less variation to these specs now than there are on live. Look at it this way: there are probably 2 ways to spec destruction PvE that are viable for anything: replenishment and non replenishment.

There are dozens of fucking awful ways to fill out destruction that will make your DPS terrible in comparison. People will laugh at you, pugs will kick you, guilds will not want you. These need to go. Yeah, the there isn't much varity to the tree now but that's why this is a beta and only the first pass at talents.

[Sylar Hao]

I just feel that talents like Hand of Gul'dan, Improved Hellfire, Cremation, Decimation and Molten Core fit much better in the Destruction tree. I see Destruction warlocks as bringers of Chaos and (of course) Destruction, and these talents fit better that role than Soul Leech (though I really really like that one), Improved Searing Pain (still not nice), Improved Shadow Bolt (still in Destruction Tree...)... (Yeah, I love Destruction, Chaos, the world set on flames... XD). Also, though I love Bane of Havoc, I feel it fits better the demon tree.

In addition, why does Demonic Empowerment exist or is not changed? I mean, non-demo-locks can't reach it and Demon warlocks almost exclusively use Felguard... Impending Doom looks really nice.

About Afflition, it looks nice. Many +damage actual talents merged .

Also, I feel about all trees of all clases like I don't really have choices. If they were a bit more bloated it would be nice. Also a few more talents points could help this.

[volrat]

You know, the cake is the same, just your pieces have to be larger.
Honestly, an exp pack shouldn't aim at that, imho.
A lot of things are still missing, but from past experience, when they do bad design it is very unlikely they will fix it fast: casted corruption anyone? Curse of weakness? infernal? doomguard? etc.etc.
Also,lots of boredom still lives in those trees, it is not that every point u spend bring something new and exciting, like they were sayin lately, but now as now, u cannot expect something Blizz states to be any truth or reliable, so we seet and wait.

[Noire]

No more felguard + siphon life faceroll levelling

[adynn]

I like some of what I'm seeing in the demo tree, but then again, I've always felt that the felgaurd was a very mediocre pet compared to what it used to/could be. There don't seem to be enough viable pve utility spells in any of the trees (I feel like there's bad talents I'm forced to take in all). I'm also wondering what will happen to soul fire, as a build with decimation, bane and emberstorm would have an absolutely brutal (read imba) execute phase given the damage from 3.3.5's soul fire. The new soul leech also feels imbalanced, 10% health/mana feels way too powerful. The affliction tree has had very little changed in regards to significant pve talents, which i find a little boring and i'm hoping will get revamped in a later build. I'm aware that these talents are in no way complete, but the above was just my thoughts on the topic as it stands

[Abomnivous]

One thing I noticed was that it was very difficult to make your way down the demonology tree without taking sub optimal talents

[Hellraider]

Warlocks are getting much nice toys, that's good and ofc that 31 point tree is more intresting for leveling (no more 2%dmg to shadow bolt). What i don't like is that we are probably gonna get new talent every second level and talent trees now feel little empty. Talents was quite unique system compared to many other games and now they are making it smaller, easier and taking much choises away. And if i'm honest, that 2% shadow bolt damage thing isn't THAT bad that blizzard should change it.

[starkilleralfa]

BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA is still on so dont worry to much about it and for the incoming troll mega tsunami that is what is going to scare people cuz they now have full energy and are ready to troll about everything...

[adynn]

starkiller, I think you just gave me a brain aneurysm with the trolling about trolling. There is nothing wrong with discussing changes even if they aren't complete.

[volrat]

BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA is still on so dont worry to much about it and for the incoming troll mega tsunami that is what is going to scare people cuz they now have full energy and are ready to troll about everything...

If u only take the time to read, u should see we all know it's beta, we clearly states it every time, but my and other arguments simply go a lil further, discussing the 31 points trees, that should remain, and tipin beta x times wont make you any smarter or contructive.

[Sophia Seed]

I honestly am not sure if these are the changes made to the Warlock talent trees, that I will continue to play a warlock. I namely play a demonology warlock, but I've played destroy and affliction before, but I always find myself ENJOYING Demonology, so most of this rant or review, however you may see it, is taken from the demonology point of view.

First off, Getting a Felguard at level 10 really does change a lot of what you do with the game. Especially considering that you still have to get a voidwalker, a succubus, a felhunter, and then assuming you use the Infernal and Doomguard. I can't tell you honestly how often I used either the infernal or doomguard since I got them back in vanilla, but it was next to none, considering the infernal wasn't overly useful except in pvp, and the doomguard was NEVER used because of the Russian Roulette mechanic about it. Now if you ask me about the my voidwalker, succubus, felhunter, or even my imp, I can't even remember their names anymore. Felguard at such an early level is an overpowered beast that really doesn't give you the sense of being a demonology warlock at all. I can assume after you get the felhunter, then getting the felguard at say, a 11 point talent, because you really have figured out a greater portion of the Demonology at that point. If you were going to give demonology warlocks something right away, Master Demonologist perhaps, and maybe Demonic Empowerment right away, this way you feel like you're really pumping up your demon and getting something out of having him there. Then by level 30, you get the felguard, it really does make it feel purposeful to have gotten this far and is a decent reward in my book.

Now for the talents, which absolutely scare me. A comment was made that back in vanilla that in order to get the last talent in a tree, you only needed 31 talent points, and yeah, back in vanilla we did that. BUT back in vanilla there were a lot more choices to go with your points, and you really had a lot more option available to you. Granted, Demonology has always been a lot of passive buffs that greatly increase you and your pet passively, but a lot of the stuff now, I don't even use now, and wouldn't even if I went down it. Back in Vanilla, there were a lot more options in how you play each spec of a warlock, so a majority of the talents you got, but you had the option to pass up X over Y and get A and B, or neither far more often than with these Talents. Here, you almost absolutely have to Get X, then Y, and Z, just to get A. And the options that they give us aren't even real options, in fact, you either get this talent, or you can't go any further down the tree. If you were to get the good talents at the bottom of the demonology tree, Nemises(Cooldown for your abilities), Demonic Pact(your favorite party/raid buff), and the new Cremation(Immolate refresher for new HoG), you find yourself with 33 points in to the Demonology tree, only 7 points to spend else where.

Yeah in vanilla we got along find with 31 point talents, but we had a hell of a lot more choices when we did go all the way down the tree, these aren't choices, they're bad decisions you have to take that doesn't even feel beneficial unless you start relying on them as your core mechanics. There are talents that essentially you will want to pass up time and time again, and others that feel weird for a demonologist all about their pets and such:

Improved Succubus: A bit more attractive as a pet, though I find myself wondering why I would be using the succubus if I got the felguard. Succubus is still very situational in my book, even if the casting time for seduction is shortened and it's use is lengthened, I still can't see myself loosing the power of my pet to put just one guy asleep. If the mechanic is more vital to the success of groups for instances and raids, I can recall a few in BC that didn't require it, but having it was very useful, then sure it might be more attractive, but you have the felguard at level 10, why go with succubus or even train for it? If this were Destro or Affliction, I can see this being somewhat more attractive than other talents if you're going to jump in to other trees, but Demonology will probably not.

Improved Imp: Similar argument to the Succubus. I have a felguard at level 10, why would I improve a pet I won't be using all that often. If the attempt to is steer players away from using the Felguard for everything, then make the other pets more attractive to use as a whole, they're very situational. Soloing or grouping, I can't imagine why I would prefer a imp or succubus over a Voidwalker. Which brings me too:

Demonic Brutality: IE Improved Voidwalker: This is just lazy, honestly, improved voidwalker at level 40 or so? Do you really think you'll be using the voidwalker at this point, and if you get the talent, it's 3% to the demonic frenzy effect. When the effect can get up to 50%, in all honesty is an extra 3% for three talent points really fair?

Improved Health Funnel: Right now, the option is to get this if you want to heal your pet in combat, OR get the far more easily gotten Fel Synergy and heal your pet for free with the 15% of damage you do. Gee… two points to heal your pet automatically, OR two points to have to do it yourself while in combat and take away from your actual combat? I wonder? If its trained, then sure, but I don't see it yet. Nor do I see Demonic Knowledge either. See, if I have my pet out, will I have any buffs from him?

Mana Feed: its currently a one point talent, get a 100% back to your pet. Now it's 2 points for 120%, sure I'll get it, but it's one point now. Besides, life is fairly easy to get back for a warlock as of late, what with drain life and Fel Armor. I don't think this one should be 2 points, it feel like a stop gap and a necessary point just to progress down the tree.

Impending Doom: I know a new mechanic is to take Curse of Agony and Cure of Doom and make them new spells called Bane of Agony and Bane of Doom so that you can have a curse up, but as a Demonologist, and as a warlock in general, I don't use Curse of Doom… nearly ever. If I'm about to die and yeah I know the fight will last another minute, I might put it up assuming I'll die and everyone else will live. But the rareness of my desire to use it is very situational and it doesn't come up very often. How often do you get a boss where he lets you just do massive +damage to him for a short window, not since BC I've noticed, and if you can now, Curse of Doom wouldn't even happen before the window disappeared and the extra head, or body part went back to its body. Nope, the only reason you'd get it is because it gives you access to shortening your demon form, which better be useful.

Hand Gul'dan: So yeah, I know it's a big new talent for warlocks, but I'm very iffy about it. On one hand a hallmark of Demonology is the simplicity, which I too complain about. Now we can put up Curse of Elements and Bane of Agony on top of Corruption and Immolate, but we'll also get a new demon bolt which improves the demon's damage, it almost seems like we're turning in to Affliction with a better pet with the number of things we'll have to put up first before we ever get to the shadow bolt a boss down, and that's just a boss. Assumingly, in a fight, standard everyday mob, you'll find yourself with the same rotation of immolate, agony, corruption, then what ever else it is you like to do. Three dots and the felguard usually kill something. Maybe you'll throw demon bolt out there, or kill it quickly with shadowbolt, I fear this is primarily for raiding, parties, and pvp, which is where everyone goes anyways, but even then, is this something that procs or an actual ability you click?

Ancient Grimoire: Yeah, my Succubus, Imp, voidwalker argument all over again. Seriously, 12 seconds more of a pet I don't use already and probably won't in Cataclysm? And for 2 points. Another waste of talent points just to get down the tree.

Improved Hellfire: I don't know if I'll use this one too much, though I'll have to get it aways to get Cremation if I ever get HoG. The idea of maybe walking around with Hellfire isn't a bad idea, oh wait, I already do that in Metamorphosis. Sure the idea of using while walking is somewhat attractive, but I wonder if I will, or if I will probably continue to use Seed of Corruption and Rain of Fire instead.

Molten Core: Another talent that I don't already use because it simply doesn't come up often for me to enjoy it, and when it does come up, I usually don't need another immolate on a target, as the time spent putting the dot up, the mob is either A) just about dead, or B) Dead before I did it. I don't use Soul Fire either, I might use it more often in Cataclysm, but I doubt I will. I really don't see myself using it much, and when I do use it, likely as something to kill with, assuming have one of my three shards left.

Decimation: this is probably the last one I'll address, namely because I know that I don't use Soul Fire enough for it to be substantial to get it. I don’t right now, I highly doubt it will ever be a part of my rotation.


This being said, you can skip maybe 3 talents in general going down Demonology, but you have to get everything else, even if they don't help your felguard or you out TOO much. I seriously think we could have done more creative stuff with demonology, which has historically been one of more passive buffs mostly, but still better.

First, improve the demons you use, not the ones you don't. Most players, if given the felguard right away, won't use another pet ever again. So if you are going to have improved succubus, improved imp, Improved Voidwalker (oops, I mean Demonic Brutality), then put them near the top and make them attractive for players wanted to get them from other trees, or make them more attractive for those of us warlocks going down this tree. If talents are meant to give us better strength or we're keeping only the ones people actually get, then make them worth getting. Improved Succubus has been this one talent that almost all demonology warlocks pass up time and time again, almost religiously, and yet we still have it. I don't get that at all? I don't want it, I don't want to use the succubus unless I have to, and I almost never have to, so I don't.

Second, Demonology is a passive tree of buffs, lets get some. What happened to Master Conjuror? Or demonic knowledge and fel synergy. There's some talents to give to warlocks for free if you want. Well at least Fel Synergy. I heard talks of giving demonology an extra shard perhaps in combat, seeing as before they were stuff you horded and spent like one dollars on hookers, but in Cataclysm, depending on the type of horder you are, you may use them all the time, or infrequently, so an extra shard is a better option as a passive buff. I'd spend a talent point on that.

A major complaint is really the lack of maneuverability in the trees now. Sure you got a great deal of this stuff, but they're less talents and more or less connect the dots. I mean, if the purpose of the talents is to make you specialized in combat, and if NOW I can't do hybrid builds in to other trees, then I'm stuck with 31 points in to one tree, and when I'm in it, I feel like I'm playing connect the dots. You get this, then this, then this, and then that, but then this… There's no OPTIONS.

A good tree would give players the option of the felguard or other pets. Yes, I said it. I know some people don't like using the felguard, I find it strange, but they like using the other pets and switching them out either frequently for the purpose or at least using one and sticking with it, but they still enjoy the passive buffs. Demonology needs more buffs for the pet you will actually use, or at least another option. If you are forcing me down one direction, it's connect the dots, NOT talents anymore.

If I have to go back vanilla, you always had two or three options with talents. Usually you went route A, but some went route B, and other, the strange C, the option was there, and you have an option with what you spent points in to. I know the idea is not have so many options, but Demonology, much like other trees Have no options, just work your way down, get everything, skip nothing. That's not an option, it's a cookie cutter, connect the dots, premade decisions, and lack of choices you're being given for talents, I really don't like it.



And yes I realize this is beta, and other classes got more love than Warlocks. But seriously, this wasn't even a pat on the back, more like a sarcastic "That will do pig..."