Reasons why your class is harder than it seems

[Ryquis]

I thought this would be an interesting post for my first post (/holds breath for troll accusation), but I would like to hear what about particular classes makes them difficult to perfect, if something, i.e. the rotation, is easy. Please actually be of the class you're speaking to with some kind of end game experience and knowledge in what makes your character tick. I was inspired by a post somewhere on the forums that suggested that arcane mages should oom at the verge of the boss kill for max dps, something that seems insanely hard to pull off successfully. I'll start it up, one because I see a difference between rogues that you tell what to do, and rogues that figure out what to do, and two, cause making affliction locks angry when I say my rotation requires some semblance of skill is funneh .

Assassination Rogue:
Reason Bashed - Easy rotation that is described as a 2 button spam (mut mut envenom)
Subtle Difficulties - Energy pooling for rogues in general requires more instantaneous resource management than mana based classes, which have a long term plan and can gauge mana consumption based on a bosses hp and requires semi-quick decision making to maximize dps (Have fun with that focus there hunters). Energy management also plays into crucial envenom buff uptime, where good rogues are always conscious of time left on increased poison app. Combo point procs eliminate a mutilate every so often so more attention is needed then a mindless spam. Not necessarily tricky, but being conscious of other debuffs on the boss, mainly bleeds, for quick refreshals of HfB, or planning a rupture or garrote if you are the only bleeder. And last but not least, coordinating buff times and trinket use with conditional buffs like increased energy regen after vanish.

So of course its not the most difficult rotation in the world, but saying, "lul envenom spam" is a bit of a generalization no?

tl;dr - Bashing classes for an overly generalized idea of how that class works only applies to bad (insert class here). Thoughts?

[Vitorog]

I play a combat and an muti rogue, and muti is faceroll.
You can do lots of ICC10 25 bosses literally with one hand.

[Ryquis]

I play a combat and an muti rogue, and muti is faceroll.
You can do lots of ICC10 25 bosses literally with one hand.

I play combat as well, and the differences are few and far between, mainly revolving around the fact that you have an extra button or two to press every minute, otherwise u slap on the ArP and do a 2 button rotation, also one hand playable, as is every spec, as long as there is no movement in the fight, but missed point is missed; I'm suggesting that people don't appreciate what makes a someone good at their class a good player, it isn't ease of rotation

[Onýx]

I Play a feral cat druid... Do I really need to explain any further?

[Rakeer]

bear druid, all i do is mash 2 buttons on trash and 3 on bosses. but what you don't know is that after 2 mins of mashing my fingers hurt :/

[Daos]

I Play a feral cat druid... Do I really need to explain any further?

Yeah but your class isn't harder than it seems. It appears complicated, and it is.

[akteliae]

I play combat as well, and the differences are few and far between, mainly revolving around the fact that you have an extra button or two to press every minute, otherwise u slap on the ArP and do a 2 button rotation, also one hand playable, as is every spec, as long as there is no movement in the fight, but missed point is missed; I'm suggesting that people don't appreciate what makes a someone good at their class a good player, it isn't ease of rotation

3 button rotation, technically, unless you're awful, lack Mangle, or just happen to be lazy on farm content. Far from a 3 button rotation anyway, though, given the chaotic nature of energy and CP gen for the spec, i.e., sometimes a 4 point SnD and a 5 point Rupture is correct, other times you may end up with a 3 point snd, 2 point evis, 5 point rupture. Varying off of procs and, particularly, 4 piece if you happen to be at the gear level where 4 piece becomes prominent.
Threads about subjective difficulty of specs are retarded, be they positive or negative. No one decent is going to care how hard/easy your class is to play, but how well you perform your role in a raid environment. Until everyone has mastered everything about their class *other* than the sheer dps aspect of it, they're in no position to talk about subjective difficulty.

[Daos]

Until everyone has mastered everything about their class *other* than the sheer dps aspect of it, they're in no position to talk about subjective difficulty.

For some hybrids (namely the ones with only 2 roles) this isn't terribly difficult, particularly if those two roles are melee dps and tanking. The two are similar enough that being excellent at one sets you a good way into being excellent at the other.

[akteliae]

For some hybrids (namely the ones with only 2 roles) this isn't terribly difficult, particularly if those two roles are melee dps and tanking. The two are similar enough that being excellent at one sets you a good way into being excellent at the other.

Not *at all* what I am referring to.
Put bluntly, no one cares if you do great DPS but are slow at learning fight mechanics, or knowing the ins & outs your class has with those mechanics. This is a major thing I look for any time our guild trials a new rogue. Matching my damage is one thing, matching my slipperiness with fight mechanics is another.

[Ryquis]

3 button rotation, technically, unless you're awful, lack Mangle, or just happen to be lazy on farm content. Far from a 3 button rotation anyway, though, given the chaotic nature of energy and CP gen for the spec.

Failing to see how the energy rate gain and combo point generation make it any more a step away from the fact that you have to press 3 buttons, regardless, you presented facts that attest to my original post, despite the venom in your tone; which is a general statement that mastery of a class is not contingent on the ease of rotation, as other factors play in. And, if you read, the topic was never a question of who was the better player. Needless to say that is near impossible to gauge with any semblance of accuracy, particularly in a raid setting where you rely on others, but whether or not the pure dps aspect, in terms of maximizing dps at any given time, is more difficult than it is painted to be in the WoW community; you must be a gnome rogue, cause I see it went over your head :-p

[Daos]

Matching my damage is one thing, matching my slipperiness with fight mechanics is another.

The two are related, since lack of mastery of fight mechanics as a dps will almost invariably lead to less total damage done, due to less time on target(s) / deaths / etc. This is especially true on Hard Modes.

[akteliae]

Failing to see how the energy rate gain and combo point generation make it any more a step away from the fact that you have to press 3 buttons, regardless, you presented facts that attest to my original post, despite the venom in your tone; which is a general statement that mastery of a class is not contingent on the ease of rotation, as other factors play in. And, if you read, the topic was never a question of who was the better player. Needless to say that is near impossible to guage with any semblance of accuracy, particularly in a raid setting where you rely on others, but whether or not the pure dps aspect, in terms of maximizing dps at any given time, is more difficult than it is painted to be i nthe WoW community; you must be a gnome rogue, cause I see it went over your head :-p

There was no venom in my tone at all. I've stated before, all specs are more difficult to master than other players assume them to be. That alone is why threads like this are stupid.
The reason energy regen rate and combo point generation are important to this distinction is because it varies from 2 button to 3 button, and the proper situation of when to use a 4 point SnD over a 3 point and a 2 point evis is a very on-the-fly decision, making it a very difficult spec to play to 100% at all times. Simply put, sometimes an extra SS creating a theoretical 6th combo point, that goes to waste, is more valuable than a finisher, for the purposes of rotational stability.

If for some reason you're actually worried about my main;
Leitka on Dalaran. Currently specced into evis because most everythings on farm, so the minor loss of dps for the MUCH lessened headache that lag + 4 piece procs present is what I'm currently playing with.

---------- Post added 2010-07-19 at 06:41 PM ----------

The two are related, since lack of mastery of fight mechanics as a dps will almost invariably lead to less total damage done, due to less time on target(s) / deaths / etc. This is especially true on Hard Modes.

Again, not what I'm talking about. Sometimes you sacrifice minor dps gain for raid gain, and regardless, it's quite possible for someone to do very good dps while ignoring fight mechanics. See; the top 50 or so logs for nearly every fight. They're as high as they are for a reason.

[calinass]

I press two buttons. Do I get a cookie for maximizing my threat with two buttons? I hope so! omnomnom

[Ryquis]

There was no venom in my tone at all... Threads like this are stupid.

Mayhaps my interpretation of what constitutes insulting language differs from yours in that I see an attack on a person's idea as an attack on the person, however, if you say there was not, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The theoretical sixth combo point was an issue that originated inside the mutilate spec with the crit double proc talent; only in this expansion implemented into combat spec via glyph of sinister strike, the mechanics are not so far removed as some would like to believe. Anyone with a general feeling for their SnD and rupture durations versus in general the time to get a decent sized finisher out will play combat spec well, and yes, barring sheer terrible luck, it should be an output of dps maintainable 100% of the time. I am not here to argue different spec's superiority, I made a post seeking information on other classes that have been given the shaft in the WoW community, using myself as an example. Getting information from another rogue helps me not.

[Onýx]

[/COLOR]

Yeah but your class isn't harder than it seems. It appears complicated, and it is.

Oh yeah thats right!

[Igloo]

Used to play Arcane on my Mage, which is a spec always bashed for having a two button rotation. What people don't keep in mind that you can basically only use a 1-1-1-1-2 rotation on short fights when there's not mana issues threatening you. When raiding harder content with longer fights you have to constantly keep thinking about how you can optimize mana usage whilst keeping high DPS up. Shall I pop my Evocation now or wait a bit longer? Is it worth using a mana potion for this fight? When should I use my Mana Gems, and should I re-conjure it if I'd need a new charge? TL;DR: Arcane may have a two button damage rotation, but it's how you use those two buttons and combine then with other spells which makes the differance.

[Insomnium]

I consider myself as a good druid who knows wtf to do. I have 3 very solid sets and am more then capable of achieving good results with either.
One is my main resto kit. Almost full 264 gear healing heroic icc10 on every boss except for Lootship and Saurfang.
My Guild Master made me go Boomkin (my initial offspec) for ease of trash clearing and for add management on Saurfang with typhoon and starfall.
My Boomkin set is half my resto kit for ease of use and am waiting on drops to swap out the resto pieces. Averaging a solid 8k-9k on 10m saurfang, I consider myself reasonable.
I have built my feral kit for fun and it uas grown out to be one of the top 3-5 in 25man where I am easily doing 10k nowadays. And personily I prefer it to my boomkin. But we have another feral in the guild with less gear then me. And it is his main spec where as mine is my off off kit.

This might be a thread about class rotations but I just felt like i'd share my story.
Also played an unholy and frost DK, affliction and demonolgy warlock and an enh resto shaman, I can honestly say that my enh shaman still is confusing me where the rest is somewhat straghtforward. For so far as possible.

The current cataclysm changes are really pushing me into ditching my resto part I have been enjoying since semi late TBC. (My 2 vanilla/TBC chars are still locked at 71 and 72. )
By this point I still have no idea what to say in regard to this thread apart from feral rotation being really fun with some minor addons.

Cat Durid Is Fore Fight! To quote a famous Druid.

[grogglol]

disc priest PvE:
prayer of mending, power word: shield.

oh, occasional spot heal with penance aswell. And if someone cries over mana pop a Hymn of Hope. Inner Focus -> Divine Hymn if shit starts dropping from the sky. Power Infuse your favorite caster dps and Pain Suppress the tank that doesn't know how to use own CDs.

Profit.

Sounds easy? If it wasn't for the fact that you don't really want to waste any shields that don't do any good. Anticipate the incoming damage, shield before it actually happens.

[akteliae]

The theoretical sixth combo point was an issue that originated inside the mutilate spec with the crit double proc talent; only in this expansion implemented into combat spec via glyph of sinister strike, the mechanics are not so far removed as some would like to believe.

That is not isolated to the Glyph of SS. Ruthlessness and 4 piece would like to have a word with you.
The concept of a 6th combo point as combat comes up when you need to dump energy to prevent capping, but are already combo point capped, and run into a situation where barring good luck with Ruthlessness and/or 4 piece procs post-finisher, an eviscerate (since SnD and Rupture should always be up with this situation, or it wouldn't exist in the first place) would be far worse than an extra sinister strike, because of the effect it would have on the diminishing durations of the afformentioned abilities.

Anyone with a general feeling for their SnD and rupture durations versus in general the time to get a decent sized finisher out will play combat spec well, and yes, barring sheer terrible luck, it should be an output of dps maintainable 100% of the time.

Fundamentally incorrect. Perfect performance does not exist, and it's actually rather ironic you bring up luck in the same train of thought as "anyone with a general feeling for their SnD and rupture durations versus in general the time to get a decent sized finisher", there's no luck involved in it, it's observation, and it's not wholly predictable, which is why 100% performance is not actually possible. Just because something doesn't totally destabilize your rotation doesn't mean it was the correct means. The fact that people actually believe combat to be a set rotation (mutilate too, for that matter) in any way is an amazing demonstration for how little most people understand this.

I am not here to argue different spec's superiority, I made a post seeking information on other classes that have been given the shaft in the WoW community, using myself as an example. Getting information from another rogue helps me not.

The information you provided about combat was incorrect. You referred to a two button rotation; It is never a 2 button rotation, SS, SnD, Evis at the least, but proper performance is nearly always SS, SnD, Evis, and Rupture, a 4 button priority system.
Then again I have to question if you *actually* do play combat as well, given the fact that the statement of combat "mainly revolving around the fact that you have an extra button or two to press every minute, otherwise u slap on the ArP and do a 2 button rotation" is a very misinformed view of combat, and rivals the misinformed views that your thread was seemingly made to correct. I would think that someone who actually plays both specs as you claim to would at least know that there are 3 rotational cooldowns that come into play as combat, not "one or two".

[Mahon]

Survival hunter:

On the outside it seems pretty simple. As long as you don't realize we use 7 buttons just for dps. Plus a bunch other utility abilitys.

Kill Shot
Explosive Shot
Dark Arrow
Aimed Shot/Multi Shot (shared CD)
Serpent Sting
Steady Shot

Still pretty simple, however having to manage lock and load procs and firing Explosive shots off one after another with just enough time in between so you don't clip the short DoT makes the spec a bit harder then it seems. Truth be told once you do it a little while it becomes second nature.

Oh and if you are not in a stable raid group. Having to constantly ask other hunters if they have the glyph of hunters mark, or are speced into imp hunters mark. Then if they forget to put it up...etc.