Feral Tanking Weapon in ICC10

[Trifande]

Ok, I know that this question might be a bit odd and perhaps even frowned upon by some but since there might be a few that glossover the 'oddness' of the choices and actually give a constructive reply I'm willing to bear with the rest...

Ok as a bear tank the choices for tanking weapons in ICC10 (normal mode only) is limited to the Staves, Polearms with AGI and the Maces with STR. Considering the huge STAM advantage that the Maces have over the staves/polearms and the tendency towards STAM >>> Avoidance (especially in mostly 251/264 gear) I've made the conscious choice to ignore that extra ~2-2.5% dodge, ~1.5%crit, and ~270armor in favor of the 40STAM, extra FAP and extra AP (from STR x 2).

Given the above I'm looking to choose between the following two weapons:
Warmace of Menethil with Oxheart (linked the mmo-db links first but the items have wierd-ass stats there so using wowhead links no, so no tooltips now :/)

With Oxheart I'm at roughly 42 expertise so I can definitely afford to drop that imba added expertise a bit. But as a comparison, is the added stam, ap (from str, and fap) and even Arp on the Warmace worth it compared to the Expertise on Oxheart in terms of bear tanking in ICC10 HM?

Cheers.

TL;DR: rephrased for those that want to wander off beyond my actual question
Dear posters, consider ALL 2h weapons, EXCEPT for the Warmace and Oxheart, were deleted from WoW. How would you, as a bear tank, choose between the two remaining weapons given that you are already past the expertise soft-cap, but not the hard-cap?

[Richmond]

You want the Shaft of Glacial Ice, your comparison failed to mention that the agility versions also have straight AP on them. Meaning that the FAP on

Warmace - 3176
Oxheart - 2974
Shaft - 3177

See this comparison for reference.

So the real discussion is weather 40 Stamina & 94 Arpor 35 Stam & 76 Expertise is worth dropping a wooping 136 Agility1? Not to mention the 88 hit rating (as you should already notice the severe lack of it on Ilvl 251 and above.

40 Stam, 94 Arp & 1 extra socket vs 136 Agility & 88 Hit = Debatable but the Shaft IMO pulls ahead slightly
35 Stam & 74 Expertise vs 136 Agility, 203 AP & 88 Hit = Shaft wins

The only downside to the shaft is the socket colour is horrible but the bonus isn't worth it anyway so 30 Stam will suffice. I suppose the Warmace has a certain place in certain fights but i wouldn't dare roll on it unless it was about to get DE'd

[Trifande]

You want the Shaft of Glacial Ice, your comparison failed to mention that the agility versions also have straight AP on them. Meaning that the FAP on

Warmace - 3176
Oxheart - 2974
Shaft - 3177

See this comparison for reference.

So the real discussion is weather 40 Stamina & 94 Arpor 35 Stam & 76 Expertise is worth dropping a wooping 136 Agility1? Not to mention the 88 hit rating (as you should already notice the severe lack of it on Ilvl 251 and above.

40 Stam, 94 Arp & 1 extra socket vs 136 Agility & 88 Hit = Debatable but the Shaft IMO pulls ahead slightly
35 Stam & 74 Expertise vs 136 Agility, 203 AP & 88 Hit = Shaft wins

The only downside to the shaft is the socket colour is horrible but the bonus isn't worth it anyway so 30 Stam will suffice. I suppose the Warmace has a certain place in certain fights but i wouldn't dare roll on it unless it was about to get DE'd

You seem to be missing the fact that STR converts to 2 AP per point for bears. Skewing the effective AP value of the 3 given weapons further (lets ignore BoK multipliers to make things simpler):
Warmace - 3176 + 158x2 = 3176 + 316 = 3492
Oxheart - 2974 + 148x2 = 2974 + 296 = 3270
Shaft - 3177

ie 300 AP lead with the Warmace over the shaft, and a 100 AP lead with the Oxheart.

Socket-wise both maces add an effective 30stam over the Shaft (who the hell ever cares about socket bonuses unless they given moar/equal stam as going pure 30stam ).

Again, this is completely irrelevant as I'm not asking for an AGI v/s XXX comparison, not to mention with the current gear setup I have, any added hit is purely wasted (but again, not relevant to my question here).

So once again: From a bear tank perspective, that is only comparing the Warmace and Oxheart, which one would you pick and why (given that you reach the expertise soft-cap with both, ie. added expertise from Oxheart only reduces parries not dodges).

Cheers.

[Greenmahn]

Well if your not going to concede the point that in cata then bears get 2 ap from agility cause they are removing all str from leather
by your question then there is no advantage to either one really unless your just wanting more effective health if so then you should get the warmace cause it will simply give you OMG 10 extra stam wow
and the extra ap will give you better savage defense procs

[Richmond]

So once again: From a bear tank perspective, that is only comparing the Warmace and Oxheart, which one would you pick and why
Cheers.

If your question was which one would I take? Neither of the ones you suggested, they are both 2h Melee DPS weapons. It’s a warrior, Paladin and DK’s.

A weapon is a stat stick to a druid, similar to a Hunter and you wouldn’t catch a hunter with a strength weapon either.

Like I said in my original post, the Warmace has its place in certain fights and I would take it if it was about to get DE’d. But its barely an upgrade to the Agi weapon I linked.

[Falora]

I don't see why you would just cast aside the staff. Considering you asked for help, he gave you the best answer.

Should you want to compare just those 2, I'd take the Warmace.

But I would also let another DPS take it so I could roll on the Shaft.

EDIT:

I feel the need to include the additional armor and dodge gained while using the Shaft.
Although dodge is negligible, it is another number to throw into the equation. The armor, also slight, is still a boost.

[Trifande]

@Greenmahn: wasn't talking about cata, icc is old-news come Cata so the entire discussion here is moot. The second part of your response is more what I am looking for.

@Richmond: I understand the fact that they are melee weapons, I am not disputing or even discussing that. I also realize that weapons are purely stat sticks to druids (normalized attack speed and no effect of weapon dmg values, etc.). Yet, my question, in its simplest form, was given only the choice between these two weapons to tank with in ICC10 HMs which would a druid tank prefer?

---------- Post added 2010-07-21 at 01:21 PM ----------

I don't see why you would just cast aside the staff. Considering you asked for help, he gave you the best answer.

Should you want to compare just those 2, I'd take the Warmace.

But I would also let another DPS take it so I could roll on the Shaft.

EDIT:

I feel the need to include the additional armor and dodge gained while using the Shaft.
Although dodge is negligible, it is another number to throw into the equation. The armor, also slight, is still a boost.

Once again, my OP states that for the purposes of this discussion I am ignoring the staves/polearms due to making the conscious choice to ignore the added dodge/armor/crit gains from them over the maces based on the significant HP gains the maces present. This is not the part I am asking an opinion on, though everyone is free to ignore that and give their opinion anyways. My question, and this discussion in turn, is aimed at JUST comparing those two maces from a bear tanks perspective, nothing else. And yes, for your further piece-of-mind, feel free to assume that both maces are already in my possession and would have got vendor-ed (not even DE-ed) otherwise and everyone in that raid was at the Gold cap so additional gold would be worthless.

[Falora]

Once again, my OP states that for the purposes of this discussion I am ignoring the staves/polearms due to making the conscious choice to ignore the added dodge/armor/crit gains from them over the maces based on the significant HP gains the maces present. This is not the part I am asking an opinion on, though everyone is free to ignore that and give their opinion anyways. My question, and this discussion in turn, is aimed at JUST comparing those two maces from a bear tanks perspective, nothing else. And yes, for your further piece-of-mind, feel free to assume that both maces are already in my possession and would have got vendor-ed (not even DE-ed) otherwise and everyone in that raid was at the Gold cap so additional gold would be worthless.

np, was sorta just curious about it. As I stated before, I'd take the Warmace. Assuming you don't need the expertise, the armor pen is a bit of a threat boost.

[Deleted]

Keep in mind that by dropping the armor gained from agi on the shaft you lose more EH than you gain with the stamina on the maces.

[Richmond]

Well i am a bear tank in a 10 man guild, slowly progressing through 10 man HC and i still wouldn't take either of the weapons you originally mentioned.

If it was the choice of having 1 or nothing then the Warmace is the obvious choice. Does that answer your question?

Its rather ignorant to your class to cast aside the weapons that were designed for you. It'd have to be a huge amount of HP for me to equip a strength weapon over an agility one. And when i'm already rocking 83.5k (25% buff), when i refer to huge it would have to be in the region of at least 3k more HP in favour of the 2% dodge + Armor + Crit i'd lose.

Myself and the other posters are trying to steer you in the general direction, you should take our critique and advice with a pinch of salt not just disregard it from the start. So stating that your last post was edited for people being 'slow/stubborn' will not get you many replies, its actually yourself that is being slow to understand and stubborn to the fact that you shouldn't really be arguing with posters that are trying to help you.

[Deleted]

If you got access to the warmace, you also got access to the tainted twig of nordrassil, which i strongly recommend.

[Trifande]

Well i am a bear tank in a 10 man guild, slowly progressing through 10 man HC and i still wouldn't take either of the weapons you originally mentioned.

If it was the choice of having 1 or nothing then the Warmace is the obvious choice. Does that answer your question?

Its rather ignorant to your class to cast aside the weapons that were designed for you. It'd have to be a huge amount of HP for me to equip a strength weapon over an agility one. And when i'm already rocking 83.5k (25% buff), when i refer to huge it would have to be in the region of at least 3k more HP in favour of the 2% dodge + Armor + Crit i'd lose.

Myself and the other posters are trying to steer you in the general direction, you should take our critique and advice with a pinch of salt not just disregard it from the start. So stating that your last post was edited for people being 'slow/stubborn' will not get you many replies, its actually yourself that is being slow to understand and stubborn to the fact that you shouldn't really be arguing with posters that are trying to help you.

I already understand the 'points' you and a bunch of other posters are trying to convey. I am talking about a hypothetical situation where the choice was between the two weapons I mentioned. I already understand the difference between the EH in equipping AGI weapons and STR weapons, I am trying to steer this discussion away from that topic. I am looking for a very specific response to a very specific query. Either those who reply here can answer the question posed directly or they can attempt to educate me about a topic I already understand well enough. I'm not saying I don't agree about the AGI weapons I'm just asking a SEPARATE question.

---------- Post added 2010-07-21 at 02:05 PM ----------

If you got access to the warmace, you also got access to the tainted twig of nordrassil, which i strongly recommend.

again, that's beyond the scope of this discussion. Maybe I should rephrase my question:

Dear posters, consider ALL 2h weapons, EXCEPT for the Warmace and Oxheart, were deleted from WoW. How would you, as a bear tank, choose between the two remaining weapons given that you are already past the expertise soft-cap, but not the hard-cap. Simple enough?

[Deleted]

i'm glad ive never been in that situation, cause i'd want to chose neither of those 2 :P

ran the 2 through rawr with my preferred settings for icc:



Top option is pure stamina gems, 2nd option is agi/stam for red sockets and def/stam for yellow sockets.

[Trifande]

hmm interesting b/w stam v/s agi/stam. Cheers

[Greenmahn]

Dear posters, consider ALL 2h weapons, EXCEPT for the Warmace and Oxheart, were deleted from WoW. How would you, as a bear tank, choose between the two remaining weapons given that you are already past the expertise soft-cap, but not the hard-cap?

If those are your only 2 options and you are at the exp soft cap as a tank you don't need hard cap so the Only choice would be the Warmace.
Simply because it will add more HP for stronger Savage defense procs the 1 less crit at that level of gear shouldn't really be considered and the Arp will currently give you slightly more threat so why even consider the Oxheart

Now depending on what your already using, and what your current dps(dk, ret, warriors) is using. Would actually determine if you should roll on it or not personally if i am already tanking and that dropped it means that we are geared enough for the encounter and would pass so my dps'ers would be bettter geared so we can roll through the encounters faster

[Cerus]

Well if your not going to concede the point that in cata then bears get 2 ap from agility cause they are removing all str from leather
by your question then there is no advantage to either one really unless your just wanting more effective health if so then you should get the warmace cause it will simply give you OMG 10 extra stam wow
and the extra ap will give you better savage defense procs

There is no strength on on endgame leather gear - nothing to remove. But Druids will also benefit from str.

[Vorticose]

Warmace of Menethil > Oxheart as it's a lot more threat and a bit more effective health.

That said I wouldn't use a weapon without agility on it, I do mostly 10mans and my progression path was Fordragon Blades to Shaft of Glacial Ice to Shaft (Heroic). I guess if I wanted to make a maximum stamina set I would pick up a Warmace.

Unfortunately, one of the best tanking weapons and the effective health king is the "Wrathful Gladiator's Staff" from arena and requires 1800 rating for the weaker one.

[Hinalover]

personally I wouldn't use either Warmace or Oxheart. The reason being is that the weapons with Agility on them not only give armor, but also increases our crit. Our crit increases the number of times that Savage Defense is up, supplying about 2k damage reduction at almost all times. Warmace and Oxheart only supply strength for threat, and a little bit of stam, but no damage reduction.

[Sweaky]

As for druid tanking, weapons with agi is better than with str because u can benefit amr from agi. In icc 10, H6 rotface looted wepon is better. If u want to go further, no doubt S8 wepon for feral Druid is the best for durid tank.

[Duilliath]

Dear posters, consider ALL 2h weapons, EXCEPT for the Warmace and Oxheart, were deleted from WoW. How would you, as a bear tank, choose between the two remaining weapons given that you are already past the expertise soft-cap, but not the hard-cap. Simple enough?

Neither. Simple enough?

--

Ask a simple question, get a simple answer.

//edit: I assume, from your incessant asking the same damn thing over and over again that you've got them both. Vendor them and earn some gold.