dk aggro in cata

[Millhi]

i mentioned it before in on the front page itself and i will say it again liek someone else did here.
Now icy touch causes high threat in every presence. in cataclysm with the changes of the presences.
Blood presence= tank presence!
Frost presence= dps presence!
Unholy presence= solo/pvp presence?.
wich will mean in cataclysm. As a tank you will be in blood presence and icy touch will cause the high amount of threat. while in frost presence or unholy presence it won't cause any threat. hope this is what you ment. also they could change the tooltip abit to say it causes high amount of threat in blood presence but no threat in frost/unholy presence.

OT. my bro is a dk tank himself on every fight (mostly he is the OT) he uses 1IT then 1 PS and just do normal DS and HS spam. after 1DS and HS he alrdy got more aggro then the MT (wich is very skilled+ hunters MD him nd rogues ToT him on start.)and has to stop dmging (on fights like festergut it's a pain in the ass with the 90% extra dmg done wich causes my bro to make amounts of threat that he can't even dps due to icy touch threat.) people tend to use ITspam but it isn't the way to do.

[Millhi]

oh gee, who cares about that tiny bit of extra dmg?
the difference between spamming BS or IT with four death runes up is so marginal, it will never make or break anything.

threat on the other hand does become an issue sometimes these days.
lady hc, or lk hc transition phases to name a few fights.
heck, when i tank keleseth from blood council IT is basically the only option to build a decent ammount of threat while running around grabbing shadow orbs.

stop making retarded arguments just to make others look bad.

ot: as others have said, the reason for the threat change is the change of presences.

on blood council refering to my bro again he uses like 2-3 IT in the whole fight. when he gets his enrage whatever called buff my bro just does his normal rotation and theres no dps that comes even close to my bro's threat.

[Pickwickman]

oh gee, who cares about that tiny bit of extra dmg?
the difference between spamming BS or IT with four death runes up is so marginal, it will never make or break anything.

threat on the other hand does become an issue sometimes these days.
lady hc, or lk hc transition phases to name a few fights.
heck, when i tank keleseth from blood council IT is basically the only option to build a decent ammount of threat while running around grabbing shadow orbs.

stop making retarded arguments just to make others look bad.

ot: as others have said, the reason for the threat change is the change of presences.

Who cares about that tiny bit of damage? Tell the warrior tanks who got benched from progression 'cause they did too low damage compared to the other tanks.

Threat these days is only an issue when you are at the bleeding edge of progression, which frankly the OP is not.

Keleseth tanking is a terrible example, as that fight is tuned for a ranged-tank, so you need those IT's to pick up the orbs, as you aren't a ranged class, and then you need to make sure you got enough threat on the boss. I did that myself a couple of times, and I agree excessive use of IT is in order. If a warlock tanks it, he only needs to put a corruption on the orbs and go on rolling dots on the boss.

LDW, do you mean the adds? Well, that is where IT was made for, initial aggro on a new mob/boss.
LK transition, you mean the adds? Well, that is where IT was made for, initial aggro on a new mob/boss.
Cwutididthere?

[Karramyn Langston]

Well in my opinion, IT spammers are lazy. Not only are u gimping your dps, your not being part of the fight, its much like a paladin before they nerfed Righteous fury.

[Skollvaldr]

on blood council refering to my bro again he uses like 2-3 IT in the whole fight. when he gets his enrage whatever called buff my bro just does his normal rotation and theres no dps that comes even close to my bro's threat.

so much fail in your posts...

no, IT doesn't produce high threat in every presence rigth now.

no, your 'bro' won't produce more threat than the other tank without IT spam, even more so
if that tank gets MD and ToT. (unless that tank is a very big failure)
also, tell your 'bro' to switch to blood presence when the other tank taunts off him on festergut.

no, your 'bro' shouldn't use only 2-3 ITs when tanking keleseth.
DC + IT are the best ways to grabb shadow orbs and build threat while you're on the move.
while keleseth is active your 'bro' surely shouldn't stand at the mob and do a normal rotation while his orbs are disappearing one by one. try building threat while keleseth is not active next time...

[Ashareth]

The "little bit" of extra damage it what makes a stupid "it spam" build do 2.5k dps while tanking Shambling Horrors on LK25 while not doing it and using Obliterate makes you put out 5k+ dps....
That is not "a little bit" of damage, and yes, it counts, the 1/2k difference in damage can be the difference between a 1% wipe and a kill, and it's the main reason behind the Revenge damage boost a few patches ago, because War tanks were benched due to them having the damage output you get with it spam.

It spam is retarded and useless, and if anyone (with brained people using deaggro like Hands of Salvation/tott/md) is coming near you in threat after a first rotation with 2*(IT-PS) followed by normal rotations (be it DS/HS spam or Obli/BS spam depending on spec) then you are doing something really wrong and shouldn't be tanking....

Rotface/Keleseth tanking as example is totally retarded since it's specific mechanics that force you NOT to use the normal rotation to survive. IT isn't used because it's better than a normal rotation, it's used because you don't have anything else outside DC to generate threat on this mobs.

The same way than Paladins only use Judgement, Avenger's Shield, Consecration and Exorcism (a thing you don't see in any other fight as a tank due to the 1.5s casting time....).

IT is a tool given to us to be the equivalent of Shield Slam (warriors) and Avenger's Shield (Paladins) or Faery Fire (Druids) so we got snap single target aggro to pick up new mobs and build initial threat (or just after a tank switch), spamming it is not only stupid, it's retardedly counter-productive and gimping yourself damage wise, which is one of the roles of a tank, which should, in that order :

- make sure to survive by reducing the damage he takes
- make sure to keep aggro on the boss/mob
- make sure that the raid take as little damage as possible
- make sure to generate AS MUCH damage as he can while doing the previous things

IT spammers are giving DK tanks a really bad name and should either L2Play or stop tanking right now.....

[Skollvaldr]

Who cares about that tiny bit of damage? Tell the warrior tanks who got benched from progression 'cause they did too low damage compared to the other tanks.

Threat these days is only an issue when you are at the bleeding edge of progression, which frankly the OP is not.

Keleseth tanking is a terrible example, as that fight is tuned for a ranged-tank, so you need those IT's to pick up the orbs, as you aren't a ranged class, and then you need to make sure you got enough threat on the boss. I did that myself a couple of times, and I agree excessive use of IT is in order. If a warlock tanks it, he only needs to put a corruption on the orbs and go on rolling dots on the boss.

LDW, do you mean the adds? Well, that is where IT was made for, initial aggro on a new mob/boss.
LK transition, you mean the adds? Well, that is where IT was made for, initial aggro on a new mob/boss.
Cwutididthere?

again: tank dmg is irrelevant these days while threat is not.

no, heroic keleseth was surely not tuned for a ranged tank. it probably was never blizzard's intention for him to be tanked by a ranged. just happened that it was possible on normal mode.

i agree that IT was mainly made for snap aggro but try building up threat on lady (phase 2, not talking about adds) without a chance for a rune strike and without using IT spam. good luck with that.

and no, on hc lk transition phase i'm not talking about snap aggro when mobs spawn. i'm talking about holding aggro when bloodlust is popped and every dps bursts the heck out of the adds with every CD active.

[Ashareth]

Stop making excuses and using a couple fights with specific mechanics as example, you are a terribad dk tank, live with it and quit tanking.
And no, if your hunters/rogues aren't braindead you won't have any problem keeping aggro while bl is popped because at that point you'll have such a lead that you could probably stop tanking and keep aggro with the aggro tools from the raid....

And no, tank damage isn't irrelevant, and strangely most of the time people say that threat is irrelevant because it's so easy to generate....

[Millhi]

so much fail in your posts...

no, IT doesn't produce high threat in every presence rigth now.

no, your 'bro' won't produce more threat than the other tank without IT spam, even more so
if that tank gets MD and ToT. (unless that tank is a very big failure)
also, tell your 'bro' to switch to blood presence when the other tank taunts off him on festergut.

no, your 'bro' shouldn't use only 2-3 ITs when tanking keleseth.
DC + IT are the best ways to grabb shadow orbs and build threat while you're on the move.
while keleseth is active your 'bro' surely shouldn't stand at the mob and do a normal rotation while his orbs are disappearing one by one. try building threat while keleseth is not active next time...

bet my bro will how should you know how my bro makes his threat go to my realm apply to my guild join a raid and see how it goes. if you think that then you think it. i wasn't talking about shadoworbs. yes deathgrip and IT are good for that. there's no need for my bro to move when keleseth is active our guild got a way for that. even going in blood presence doesn't help on fester 90% extra damage is alot.

there is more then 1way to do bosses. our guild tend to use or own tactics and they work out very well.
show your armory and whats your realm ranking on your "dk" the nwe'll talk further

[Dalavita]

IT spamming is useful on DW HC and Keleseth, I haven't done LK HC so I can't say on that one.

Everything else, your normal rotation is good enough, and in fact prefered because it does more DPS and adds to your survivability with death strikes.

[T4j]

bet my bro will how should you know how my bro makes his threat go to my realm apply to my guild join a raid and see how it goes. if you think that then you think it. i wasn't talking about shadoworbs. yes deathgrip and IT are good for that. there's no need for my bro to move when keleseth is active our guild got a way for that. even going in blood presence doesn't help on fester 90% extra damage is alot.

there is more then 1way to do bosses. our guild tend to use or own tactics and they work out very well.
show your armory and whats your realm ranking on your "dk" the nwe'll talk further

wait what? i know my eng is really bad but i barly understod 10% of your post.
anyways, icy touch was needed for the ini threat, but those tard dk spamming it is just sad. so those who wiped one 1% raise your hands.

[Skollvaldr]

Stop making excuses and using a couple fights with specific mechanics as example, you are a terribad dk tank, live with it and quit tanking.
And no, if your hunters/rogues aren't braindead you won't have any problem keeping aggro while bl is popped because at that point you'll have such a lead that you could probably stop tanking and keep aggro with the aggro tools from the raid....

And no, tank damage isn't irrelevant, and strangely most of the time people say that threat is irrelevant because it's so easy to generate....

i didn't usw a couple fights with specific mechanics as example. one out of my three examples had a specific mechanic.

and i guess it's not your's to judge whether i'm terribad. a ton of people would say otehrwise.

btw if you would actually read my posts ínstead of falling into a blindfolded nerdrage, you would realise that i never said 'you must spam IT at any time at any cost'. I was arguing against people who said that IT spam was never acceptable and thus gave some examples
where i think IT spam is usefull/needed. flexibility is the key word.

and yes, i still think tank dmg is irrelevant in 99% of all situations.
as for the shambling horror exmaple: how fast a horror loses hp is so random that 5k tank dps instead of 2,5k migth save your ass one try because the horror just dies fast enough. on the next try those 2,5k extra dps will CAUSE your wipe because it's what bearly brings the horror below 20% and might leave him with no plague. random stuff is random. think outside the box. moar deeps is not always a good thing.

[Ashareth]

You are not the only one not understanding what he write.

Worst thing is with all the stupid things he uses english is probably his native language.
But in the end, he is just another one trying to justify using the stupid it-spam rotation and the rigth to be bad at tanking.

Oh and if you rip aggro from the other tank in blood presence with the buff (while in TANK gear you know) then the other tank is really bad or the rogues/hunters keep using tott/md on you. Otherwise you don't come close (specially because the more it goes, the more buff the other tank get and so the less advantage you have over him and HE is in his tanking stance/presence/form with added threat and you aren't).

BTW i love the whole "my guild have special super secret ninja tactics for most bosses and it works, but i won't tell how" line.

[Skollvaldr]

bet my bro will how should you know how my bro makes his threat go to my realm apply to my guild join a raid and see how it goes. if you think that then you think it. i wasn't talking about shadoworbs. yes deathgrip and IT are good for that. there's no need for my bro to move when keleseth is active our guild got a way for that. even going in blood presence doesn't help on fester 90% extra damage is alot.

there is more then 1way to do bosses. our guild tend to use or own tactics and they work out very well.
show your armory and whats your realm ranking on your "dk" the nwe'll talk further

no, your bro will not. it's simply impossible to pull ahead of an equally geard tank who knows what he is doing AND gets MD and ToT.

and yes, switching to blood presence on festergut after the taunt is enough. even with 90% extra dmg you will be way behind a normal dps class. since you generat no extra threat in blood presence there is not an ice cubes chance in hell that you over aggro the other tank.

just stop making things up please.

but enoght of this, i made my point clear in my last post and i'm tire of rading through your horrible posts.

[Millhi]

english isn't my native language.
i'm raiding while writing all these stuff so i had to type it quick with alot of mistakes and sentences that aren't correct i know.
it's not about me i'm not talking about me. i'm sure our MT isn't bad at all. we shout in ventrillo who needs to be misdirected.
Itis good for snap aggro, if you use spam it the whoel fight you are bad.

BTW i love the whole " my guild has special super secret ninja tactics for most bosses....." you want more info. we just watch tankspot tactics and adjust them to what we think that will work, there's more then 1tactic on a boss and it depends on what classes we currently got in our raid in 10mans. 25mans we mostly have all classes.

---------- Post added 2010-07-21 at 05:43 PM ----------

no, your bro will not. it's simply impossible to pull ahead of an equally geard tank who knows what he is doing AND gets MD and ToT.

and yes, switching to blood presence on festergut after the taunt is enough. even with 90% extra dmg you will be way behind a normal dps class. since you generat no extra threat in blood presence there is not an ice cubes chance in hell that you over aggro the other tank.

just stop making things up please.

but enoght of this, i made my point clear in my last post and i'm tire of rading through your horrible posts.

so you're saying the MT of the guild i am sucks. good
my bro still makes threat at the start of the taunt switch when he goes to blood presence even then he needs to stop damaging boss for 2-3seconds.

but it's fine for now the posters answer has been given.

[Skollvaldr]

You are not the only one not understanding what he write.

Worst thing is with all the stupid things he uses english is probably his native language.
But in the end, he is just another one trying to justify using the stupid it-spam rotation and the rigth to be bad at tanking.

Oh and if you rip aggro from the other tank in blood presence with the buff (while in TANK gear you know) then the other tank is really bad or the rogues/hunters keep using tott/md on you. Otherwise you don't come close (specially because the more it goes, the more buff the other tank get and so the less advantage you have over him and HE is in his tanking stance/presence/form with added threat and you aren't).

BTW i love the whole "my guild have special super secret ninja tactics for most bosses and it works, but i won't tell how" line.

gosh, learn to read. your mixing my posts up with another guys (who was arguing -against- IT spam btw).
plus: under his avatar it states: location belgium...

guess there goes your credability flying.

[Iosif]

If you are a DK tank and saying this, you are a retard. If you are not a DK tank and saying this, then stop speaking on things you have no clue about.

At the moment, aside from macroing Rune Strike to your abilities, IT is THE ONLY way to hold sufficient aggro with the ridiculous amount of DPS being produced these days. Lemme guess, you'd rather him just spam, a bunch of abilities that don't produce high amounts of threat? Yea, thats sufficient aggro. If IT is our main tool, which it is, then I whole-heartedly emplore that he spam the hell out of it. Don't post on something you have no clue about.

I am a DK and i hold agro just fine without spamming IT, thats not to say I don't use that tactic at the start of boss fights but its far from necessary. I don't see why you are getting all worked up, this is still early beta. My guess is they will make Heart Strike a High-Threat ability since it is native to Blood DK's (Tanks) this way your using IT to maintain Frost Fever, Plague Strike for Blood Plague and Blood Boil to maintain our "thunderclap" overall this will making Tanking a lot more interesting then how it is now.

Your Rotation would look a little more like IT>PS>DS>BB>HS at the start then something like HS>HS>DS>BB>Pest once your in to your rotation.