Boring Ret Interrupt

[Rhaenis]

So, you lost cleanse, wings and freedom have no dispel resistance, you lost -50% disarm duration off PoJ, lost art of war heal and gained a melee interrupt. And you think ret became more viable?

Dispel resistance is supposed to be no longer necessary. They are rolling it into one way or another: Dispels cost a LOT more, and/or the resistance is baked in. And the changes are not final. They could very well make them both physical.

Lost 50% disarm duration, gained Holy Wrath (non-weapon) attack.

Lost Art of War heal, gained Word of Glory (instant-heal).

Gained an interrupt.
Gained HoW spam during Wings.
Gained +30% holy damage "slice-and-dice".
Gained another burst CD, Zealotry.
Gained -1sec additional CD reduction on Judgement.
Gained JoL/JoJ combo.
Gained 40% JotW instead of 25%.
Gained 20% haste buff (WF/Icy Talons buff).
Gained easy access to 40s CD HoJ (T1 Prot).

So yes. More viable.

[Araxie]

Was anybody else hoping that since they gave kitties and bears a cool mechanic on top their interrupt maybe rets would get something neat too?

I'm not gonna lie, as it currently stands, ret looks pretty boring. I'm not going to comment on whether its going to be good or not, I just think the class looks like it got taken to pieces and not put back together very well.

This...




is...





BETA!

[Endeavor]

Are you serious? The only real things a Paladin ever really needed were a gap closer and an interrupt and we got the interrupt.

You still whining?

Jesus, some people are never satisfied.

[Stormgard88]

Dispel resistance is supposed to be no longer necessary. They are rolling it into one way or another: Dispels cost a LOT more, and/or the resistance is baked in. And the changes are not final. They could very well make them both physical.

Lost 50% disarm duration, gained Holy Wrath (non-weapon) attack.

Lost Art of War heal, gained Word of Glory (instant-heal).

Gained an interrupt.
Gained HoW spam during Wings.
Gained +30% holy damage "slice-and-dice".
Gained another burst CD, Zealotry.
Gained -1sec additional CD reduction on Judgement.
Gained JoL/JoJ combo.
Gained 40% JotW instead of 25%.
Gained 20% haste buff (WF/Icy Talons buff).
Gained easy access to 40s CD HoJ (T1 Prot).

So yes. More viable.

this

[jitzul]

most ret pallys are sad that they wont be pure faceroll anymore

[Anjilo]

been playing with the new Holy power. Templar's verdict critting for 12000, only might buff and no Avenging wrath. Nom nom nom.
Seals of Retribution gives all attacks while a seal is active to hit for additional 15% weapon damage. if your feeling adventerous that makes Seal of Light and Seal of justice have some damage to them.

[FuriousD]

I'm going to choose to just neglect the childish comments of the 22 year olds who act like they're 14 here.

Dispel resistance is supposed to be no longer necessary. They are rolling it into one way or another: Dispels cost a LOT more, and/or the resistance is baked in. And the changes are not final. They could very well make them both physical.

Lost 50% disarm duration, gained Holy Wrath (non-weapon) attack.

Lost Art of War heal, gained Word of Glory (instant-heal).

Gained an interrupt.
Gained HoW spam during Wings.
Gained +30% holy damage "slice-and-dice".
Gained another burst CD, Zealotry.
Gained -1sec additional CD reduction on Judgement.
Gained JoL/JoJ combo.
Gained 40% JotW instead of 25%.
Gained 20% haste buff (WF/Icy Talons buff).
Gained easy access to 40s CD HoJ (T1 Prot).

So yes. More viable.

This is interesting - and I never once debated or complained that we will be worse. Or really intended to complain that we are to much like other classes but rather that we were losing some of the most prized ret skills. Some of these I weren't familiar with, and when I posted this Zealotry was 30min cooldown, and I thought instant heals had become holy-only. So this is somewhat comforting.

Also - Araxie: no really, I didn't know this was beta. Hence the "as it currently stands", eugh I said I wouldn't respond to childish posters like you.

[Elanale]

Was anybody else hoping that since they gave kitties and bears a cool mechanic on top their interrupt maybe rets would get something neat too?

I'm not gonna lie, as it currently stands, ret looks pretty boring. I'm not going to comment on whether its going to be good or not, I just think the class looks like it got taken to pieces and not put back together very well.

I strongly suspect that you would not be satisfied with anything balanced. Why? Because the Paladin changes were the best changes a person could reasonably hope for their class. They got an exciting new resource mechanic and a few neat new spells. So clearly if that's not good enough for you, whatever would be good enough would be unreasonable.

---------- Post added 2010-07-22 at 10:10 PM ----------

here's my ideas:

1. [gift of the archangel] it's basicly flight form for paladins. nothing special 1.5 second cast time etc.
2. retribution talent; [suistainable faith] makes the guardian of ancient kings a pet, but decreases your melee(white) damage by X / X%

bubble removed.

hand of freedoms duration increased to 20 sec untalented.

lay on hands cd 10 min untalented

AW now a holy talent. alt.1. increases your healing by 20% but reduces your haste by 10%
alt.2. increases your haste by 20% but reduces your healing by 10%

Seriously? You had an audience willing to read your ideas and this is what you choose to squander it on?

Seriously?

Okay, dude, I guess that's what we're going with. Well, my response is that the archangel thing just isn't going to happen, and do you honestly believe that Blizzard's going to take a class that previously did not have even a temporary minion and out of the blue, six years into the game's lifespan, make it a pet class? They've never done that before. They've given out temporary minions and years later given the Frost Mages an ability to make it permanent, but that kind of gameplay leap has never been made before. Y'know, 'cause it would be jarring and weird?

[FuriousD]

Elanale: I made no reference to any complaint about it being unbalanced.
I just implied I'm hoping they aren't making us a more regular pvp dps by giving us stuff others can do and taking away anything that made us unique. Maybe it's not true, maybe it will change yet (probably even), maybe it won't be boring, I'm sure it will be different so I'm just hoping its for the better.
In fact a lot of the clarifications that made the new mechanic make sense do look promising, these being things I didn't know when posting originally.

l2read or don't post k thx.
if you could read, you would notice that I avoided saying whether we are going to be good or not and thus wouldn't have wasted your time here.

[fizikz]

bad little kids will find something to whine about no matter what you give them.

[zcks]

While the rotation is a nice change the interrupt will be useless because we will be even more vulnerable to kiting then we are on live & will have much lower healing potential which means much more pressure on our healer to keep us alive while they wait for us to get to the target.

The simple truth is Pursuit of justice + judgment of justice (which will be combined with light in cata) is by far the worst gap closing mechanic in the game & could use a serious update since we will no longer be able to self heal well or cleanse & ranged classes are getting even more ways to kite & CC.

Maybe they could change hand of freedom to be immune to dispels when cast on yourself, then they could change pursuit of justice to provide a noticeable speed boost when you cast hand of freedom on yourself (say 15-30% at rank 2) Seeing as how hand of freedom only lasts 6 seconds that is still no where near as good as an instant gap closer like charge/intercept/death grip is because we could still be hit with fear/polymorph/disorients/knock backs etc... while on the way to our target but at least it would be something.

[damntree]

Dispel resistance is supposed to be no longer necessary. They are rolling it into one way or another: Dispels cost a LOT more, and/or the resistance is baked in. And the changes are not final. They could very well make them both physical.

Lost 50% disarm duration, gained Holy Wrath (non-weapon) attack.

Lost Art of War heal, gained Word of Glory (instant-heal).

Gained an interrupt.
Gained HoW spam during Wings.
Gained +30% holy damage "slice-and-dice".
Gained another burst CD, Zealotry.
Gained -1sec additional CD reduction on Judgement.
Gained JoL/JoJ combo.
Gained 40% JotW instead of 25%.
Gained 20% haste buff (WF/Icy Talons buff).
Gained easy access to 40s CD HoJ (T1 Prot).

So yes. More viable.

Yes, all this extra dmg is nice but will be nerfed away within the first few patches just like wrath. The real problem is mobility, there is none currently. History shows there wont ever be any. All ret has been doing since wrath came out is trading away their new shineys for the promise of more utility. Blizzard has never given it and never will. So after another expansion of lolret in arenas they give a melee interrupt and take cleanse? All the rest of that shit doesn't matter because you can't stay on your target.

[rabbimojo]

Yes, all this extra dmg is nice but will be nerfed away within the first few patches just like wrath. The real problem is mobility, there is none currently. History shows there wont ever be any. All ret has been doing since wrath came out is trading away their new shineys for the promise of more utility. Blizzard has never given it and never will. So after another expansion of lolret in arenas they give a melee interrupt and take cleanse? All the rest of that shit doesn't matter because you can't stay on your target.

The damage won't be nerfed unless it's excessive DPS. That's the difference, this time.
Previously, Ret was nerfed because of excessive burst damage. That more or less shouldn't be an issue in Cata, with the improved health pools and improved armor all around.

I'm sure it will occasionally pop up as a reason for a nerf, but I don't see it affecting ret; ret has actual ramp-up now.

Furthermore:
"Acts of Sacrifice *New* - Decreases the cooldown by 10/20/% and mana cost by 10/20% of your Hand of Freedom and Hand of Salvation."

This is two things:
1) It means HoF cooldown is now 20 seconds instead of 25. Thus, 6/20 seconds (30% of the time) you are snare-free, whereas before it was 24%. That's a 25% improvement in snare-free uptime. (Modulo dispels)
2) It means Blizz is considering HoF as a way to fix Ret's kiting issues, which is most important because it means they agree Ret has kiting issues. Whether this initial stab is too weak or not is immaterial, as it's on their radar.

[Anderthel]

Everyone complained we didn't have a "rotation" and that we hit the same 5 buttons in a pretty set pattern. Now they throw a few new abilities in the mix that you must think about before <insert button mashing here>. TBH it was getting a little boring lately to play as ret. I'm for one stoked to see what the final product looks like.

[Rhaenis]

Yes, all this extra dmg is nice but will be nerfed away within the first few patches just like wrath. The real problem is mobility, there is none currently. History shows there wont ever be any. All ret has been doing since wrath came out is trading away their new shineys for the promise of more utility. Blizzard has never given it and never will. So after another expansion of lolret in arenas they give a melee interrupt and take cleanse? All the rest of that shit doesn't matter because you can't stay on your target.

Well that's a different argument entirely, isn't it?

An interrupt makes Ret more viable. Period.

If you want to talk about closers/snares, then that's a separate issue.

Yes, Ret is still weak in that regard, but your pessimistic and negative view is unwarranted.

There are 2 positive changes to gap-closing in this beta build:
- HoF talents in T2 Prot and T6 Ret changes the HoF downtime from 19sec (live) to 10sec
- HoJ talent being in T1 Prot makes a much more useful build without sacrificing too much damage

"History" doesn't show anything. In fact, until this recent build, "history" showed that we would "never get an interrupt". Well guess what?

It's not too late for them to add a snare or closer. I doubt they will, but I also didn't think they would add a new combat system for Ret either, so anything is possible at this point.

Losing Cleanse is not that big a deal. How many times did you have to cast it to remove all of those winter's chill debuffs with 30% dispel resist? Have you ever tried catching a Slow-spamming Arcane Mage by spamming Cleanse? It doesn't work. I gladly give up Cleanse for an interrupt (if that was even the logic, which is not necessarily the case).

A simple change of HoF to physical (or undispellable) for Ret, and I think it would be pretty dang close to balanced.

But to say the changes they've made so far don't make Ret *more* viable than they were before is just silly.

[Deleted]

why not just make freedom undispellable?

[zcks]

why not just make freedom undispellable?

Even if freedom was immune to dispel we would still have to run at our normal +115% speed to the target. Assuming they start running when we are 20 yards away and they have run speed enchant it will still take us over 310 seconds to get within melee range assuming they use no CC at all during the chase.

Now if they made freedom immune to dispel when cast on self then changed pursuit of justice to give us a mini version of sprint say +30% run speed for the duration of freedom when you cast it on yourself then we may have some potential to close gaps. It would still leave us vulnerable to CC when freedom is down & still vulnerable to stuns, disorients, polymorph, fear etc when it is up but at least it would be a real chance to get into melee unlike what we have now & are headed for.

[McFrotton]

Rhaenis, the cooldown on CS is 6 seconds.
Ret gets it on 3 seconds and prot has a chance to refresh the cooldown.

wrong GC said ti will probably be 4 sec baseline and 3 sec ret talented

[zcks]

wrong GC said ti will probably be 4 sec baseline and 3 sec ret talented

That wouldn't complex at all then it would just be 111211121112 with the occasional 3 for a judgment thrown in. mastering ret dps now would be harder because at least we would have to watch 5 different CDs at least to maximize dps.

[bateman]

Was anybody else hoping that since they gave kitties and bears a cool mechanic on top their interrupt maybe rets would get something neat too?

I'm not gonna lie, as it currently stands, ret looks pretty boring. I'm not going to comment on whether its going to be good or not, I just think the class looks like it got taken to pieces and not put back together very well.

is this a better ret interupt: 6 second interupt on a 10 second CD except it also deals 150% weapon dmg and generates 3 holy power.