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  1. #201
    I'm not too fond of cc, it just gives the illusion that the trash mobs are 'hard' or that it takes 'skill' in order to get through trash. But all it accomplishes is dragging things on and on and wasting time, i just want to get in there get it done and move on.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi View Post
    I'm not too fond of cc, it just gives the illusion that the trash mobs are 'hard' or that it takes 'skill' in order to get through trash. But all it accomplishes is dragging things on and on and wasting time, i just want to get in there get it done and move on.
    You are exactly what is wrong with World of Warcraft right now and with the Wrath of the Lich King expansion as a whole.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi View Post
    I'm not too fond of cc, it just gives the illusion that the trash mobs are 'hard' or that it takes 'skill' in order to get through trash. But all it accomplishes is dragging things on and on and wasting time, i just want to get in there get it done and move on.
    heerobya beat me to it.

  4. #204
    Oh i'm sorry, i forgot that not agreeing with the people that like to complain and complain about things are not 'hard' or 'challenging' enough is a bad idea and i also forgot that wanting to just get things over with instead of wasting time on tedious mechanics is a bad idea too. I forgot that the issue is rather sensitive to people who cant accept the fact that Wrath of the Lich King streamlined raiding and made heroic 5-mans less of a pain in the ass, cause i so loved waiting for my specific 5 man group to get on so that we could do some heroics back in BC and i distinctly remember even back then people were stupid, so i doubt that implementing crowd control will fix that.

    Deal with it.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by heerobya View Post
    You are exactly what is wrong with World of Warcraft right now and with the Wrath of the Lich King expansion as a whole.
    To a point, he's right. CC being required is not a skill, nor is it really a challenge - it's a pacing mechanism. Yes, being able to bulldoze through heroics when literally anybody can be at least two tiers ahead of them does get boring... but on the other hand, if I'm at least two tiers ahead of the heroics, I should be afforded some liberties like that.

    But there's also a middle ground.

    If we go back to the days of TBC where 2-3 of every single trash pack needs to be CC'd somehow, it'll get really old, really fast. The only saving grace of TBC heroics is that they were purely a means to an end. Once you got the gear necessary to do Karazhan, you didn't have to run a lot of heroics anymore.

    With the ever-so-thoughtful change, where you get some of the "best" emblem equivalent for running a heroic a day... having to constantly CC everything in heroics throughout the lifespan of the expansion will be tiresome as hell.

  6. #206
    502 Double post
    Last edited by Arashi; 2010-07-23 at 03:16 PM.

  7. #207
    Edit: Yay Bad Gateway doublepost.

  8. #208
    [QUOTE=backor;8411545]
    What I find fun is multiple targets at once in my face.

    Rofl. OT: I kinda agree with you I loved aoe tanking with my pally and im sure going to miss it
    Guild Wars 2 Was A Lie

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi View Post
    i just want to get in there get it done and move on.
    No THIS is the problem.

    It's not about accomplishing anything or God forbid any challenge, it's all about getting stuff now getting it faster getting more of it getting it bigger getting it NOW getting it easier...

    An entire generation of spoiled little children.

    Now I'm not saying the really "old school" way of having to pull teeth to get anywhere was any better, time sink does not = challenge...

    Cataclysm needs a fine balance between the time/challenge investment of TBC heroics and the lawl faceroll epeen waving of WotLK heroics.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by heerobya View Post
    it's all about getting stuff now getting it faster getting more of it getting it bigger getting it NOW getting it easier...
    This is a definite time where the old adage of "Hate the player, not the game" goes out the window because it is simply the players adapting to changes in game systems.

    Believe me, before I cancelled my account, if I couldn't get frost emblems from a daily heroic, I wouldn't have done them. The feeling of heroics being "required" is what has caused the "Get in, go through the motions as fast as possible, get the fuck out" mentality.

    This isn't going to go away. By the time tier 12 rolls around and people start getting bored of the whole 6 heroics present in Cataclysm, but are "forced" to run them anyway to get Valor points... being also forced to adhere to a pacing mechanism like a heavy CC requirement is going to piss quite a few people off.

    Which is why it won't be the all out CC orgy that you and people like you have a raging hard-on for. They had their chance to keep heroics at possible 2-3 hour ordeals, and they got rid of it.

  11. #211
    I think Cataclysm is going to have enough raid content right off the bat that raiding players won't HAVE to run heroics every day, it may be more efficient for them to simply raid one of the 4 or whatever available raids and skip heroics all together once they out gear them, kind of like how things were in TBC.

    But then those at heroic level or trying to break into raiding can still use heroics to "catch up" and such.

    Blizzard admitted the badge system and heroics were a mess in Wrath, forcing you to do heroics throughout the ENTIRE expansion because they kept upping the badges and badge rewards for heroics.

  12. #212
    Im only happy that they bring back CC. Cuzz then it will not be faceroll anymore, ppl have to think twice b4 they go nuts on packs.

    my 2 cents
    Lagg dosen't exist. Only bad Internetz...
    Paladins isent OP Blizz just made all ohter classes weaker.

  13. #213
    What i find weird is that (some) people are trying to pretend really hard that any class has GOOD cc when in fact it's not the case and making list of cc abilities (half of them not being CC at all) or trying to pretend off-tanking/kiting is CC (no it's not, never was, never will be), and even more that some MELEE classes are supposed to kite but, strangely (as in : "it's 90% sure they are one of the 2/3 classes heavy on cc that can be used in Cata") they "forget" to mention than nearly all cc in-game is target dependant, that nearly none of it works on undead, that quite some only works on non-elemental humanoids, some only on demons/elementals and such, and some only on undead.

    The problem with cc in WoW is that it hasn't be thought into the game, but is some sort of weird "band-aid" rushed in with a stupid design in mind.
    If ALL classes/specs have reliable and reasonable cc usable in NEARLY ALL situations (and not just against one type of mob you can not encounter for a whole expansion...) having a certain amount of CC in instances wouldn't be a problem.
    The main problem (specially in TBC and it seems to come back in part) is that the need for CC was tailored for a group with 1+ heavy CC user, there isn't really in WoW, leading to the stacking of classes with reliable CC (sap/frost traps/sheep and such).

    In Everquest (and early EQ2) the need for CC was bearable in instances because quite some class/archetypes had decent amounts of them, those classes were mostly utility/support and not dps, and there was a class/archetype whose role was cc/support, so you would bring one in a 6 man group. But even like that it lead to the problem that you couldn't do half the content without one and it was a pain.

    A little like nearly every 10man raid right now will take any bad Shaman as last spot for BL instead of a good player of another class, because it makes encounters far much easier.

    Edit>> and i love all the "WotLK heroics were faceroll" when for months most people refused to run HoS/OK due to them being "too hard", and Blizz had to nerf them big time (making them far less fun, specially OK) before people ran them.
    What made HC too easy for A PART of the player base is the fact that there was no gear reset, and that all the people in T6 gear already overgeared HC when they reached 80, didn't need gear in it outside of a couple piece, and didn't replace their gear for most part till the second half of Naxx....

    It shouldn't happen in Cata with the gear reset. THAT will make instances more difficult to run than in WotLK because you won't have overgearing people pulling you trough while letting you take the gear up from start.
    After that in second/third tier it'll be exactly like now.
    Last edited by Ashareth; 2010-07-23 at 02:44 PM.

  14. #214
    I think Blizzard knows what classes have what CC, how often it is usable and how reliable it is, and how well represented those classes are within the over all population.

    They are smart enough to design encounters requiring CC with those considerations in mind.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by heerobya View Post
    Blizzard admitted the badge system and heroics were a mess in Wrath, forcing you to do heroics throughout the ENTIRE expansion because they kept upping the badges and badge rewards for heroics.
    I think they also said that it would be a while (and take more than one raid tier) to make it so you could "cap" your Valor points without doing heroics.

    At any rate, people will still be "forced" to do heroics throughout the entire expansion. Maybe not high end raiders (but a lot of them aren't doing heroics now, anyway).

  16. #216
    I proooobably missed one of those real cool blue posts, but where did anyone say anything about bringing CC back to heroics?
    Yes, they do want to bring back CC to the game. But does that mean they are going to force this onto all of us? I doubt it.
    When I first heard about the rebirth of CC in Cataclysm I got really excited, looking forward to raiding the new tier of content while not being able to just /afk every single pack of trash mobs. I always thought of "bringing back CC" as a "let's go back to the roots, have some challenging, controllable trash packs in raids." It never occured to me that Blizz would want to screw up their own system by introducing too much CC in heroics. I mean, surely they are going to aim for more challenging content where players are asked to cooperate again, but I don't think that adding tons of unnecessary CC just for the heck of it is part of that.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by snowblind View Post
    To a point, he's right. CC being required is not a skill, nor is it really a challenge - it's a pacing mechanism. Yes, being able to bulldoze through heroics when literally anybody can be at least two tiers ahead of them does get boring... but on the other hand, if I'm at least two tiers ahead of the heroics, I should be afforded some liberties like that.

    But there's also a middle ground.

    If we go back to the days of TBC where 2-3 of every single trash pack needs to be CC'd somehow, it'll get really old, really fast. The only saving grace of TBC heroics is that they were purely a means to an end. Once you got the gear necessary to do Karazhan, you didn't have to run a lot of heroics anymore.

    With the ever-so-thoughtful change, where you get some of the "best" emblem equivalent for running a heroic a day... having to constantly CC everything in heroics throughout the lifespan of the expansion will be tiresome as hell.
    Can't help agreeing with this man: CC has nothing to do with skill. It is a way to stop the groups from bullying their way through an instance with recount showing top abilities like Blizzard (83%), Rain of Fire (91%) or Fire Nova (79%) at the end of the run.

    That is the only reason why: Pacing the instance. Having the illusion to be skillful when all it is is a moon or a square on top of a mob and not using AoE. This is not skill.

    To put an example down, skill in 5 men is having gauntlets like the tunnel in PoS hc, The Krick and Ick Encounter (to some extent) managing a pull with both a caster and a ranged DPS like in HoR hc, or the last wave of scourge while escaping the Lich King. That pull is big and messy, and if the tanks/healers can't manage their CD, or the DPS cant manage their aggro, then you start having trouble.

    The issue i think is that it takes a lot of brainstormign and good idea to create gauntlets or encounters like that for all of the endgame 5 man content, when restablishing CC is MUCH easier.

    The issue I see could be using LFG with classes that have limited CC, or CC that doesnt work against this or that type of mobs. But let's see how it unfolds...

  18. #218
    The whole thing with the 'return of cc' in Cata, in my opinion, is that it will likely be needed (but nowhere near tbc style) in heroic mode dungeons when you are at the correct gear level. Once you gear up in raids, you'll probably dispense with the CC and aoe through, but the difference will be that in Cata there will be fewer steps up in item level, due to the 10/25 shared loot system, meaning we won't overgear five mans as drastically as we do now, which makes them require 0 concentration as you churn through mobs in a single gcd.
    Originally Posted by Tigole
    I'm not so sure endgame players would like the face of the game if everyone had instant access to all of the content. There is something to be said for progression and the sense of accomplishment. Don't get me wrong, we have to be careful not to create a brick wall for new people, but I think there is a balance to be struck here.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shin_K View Post
    Can't help agreeing with this man: CC has nothing to do with skill. It is a way to stop the groups from bullying their way through an instance with recount showing top abilities like Blizzard (83%), Rain of Fire (91%) or Fire Nova (79%) at the end of the run.

    That is the only reason why: Pacing the instance. Having the illusion to be skillful when all it is is a moon or a square on top of a mob and not using AoE. This is not skill.
    Well said. CC is not making people play more skillfully...not even a little. CC is just about 1 person in the group placing a little emblem above some mob's head so that 1) it can be CC'd; and 2) nobody should DPS it. No skill...just a quick message in /p chat.

    I know this may piss people off, but I'll say it anyway. Blizz is bringing back CC for the sole reason that they want to slow down the 5-man dungeon runs. A lot of people complained about the 10 minute faceroll that 5's like UK, VH, and AN became even as early as 3.1. In the devs' minds, adding CC will simply add 5-10 minutes to runs...at least for a little while.

  20. #220
    CC takes skill because if you don't do it, tuned up mobs kill you.

    Translation: Mobs are more powerful.

    Translation 2: It's harder.


    You guys are stupad

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