Wotlk Raiding Mentality and why it blows

[calinass]

we cleared togc in 22 minutes this week.

/sigh
But I bet you guys all had ICC10+ gear, too, right? And knew the fight? I mean, NRB takes probably 5-7 minutes on 10 is my guess, Jara in 3-4 minutes, Faction champs probably 5, Valks 3-4, Anub 5-7?
You guys must have way outgeared that. My times are probably off but I think thats how i do it.

[Fenixdown]

Something I'd like to point out here is this. These problems aren't even new. They existed in BC just as much.

-You're telling me you never saw a person spamming trade chat saying "LFM Kara must be full T6 gear"?
-You're telling me that no guild simply packed up and quit at Mu'ru? And they didn't even get an option on it, it was do it or don't.
-And please don't try to tell me that you never saw people in Kara/T4 epics gemming strength as rogues or mp/5 as holy priests.

The only difference between BC and today is an add-on and the community simply accepting mediocrity more. People that get into PuGs now would have never, under any conditions, gotten into PuGs in BC. But who's fault is it that they get in now? It's the community's.

I like how someone earlier suggested that Blizzard should make some sort of basic instruction manual for playing the game. Uh, hello! They DO! You never bothered to read it, either, did you. Thought not, neither did I. You think a bad player's gonna sit there and read it, too? As for teaching people how to watch buffs or use certain spells...that's not Blizzard's job. Their job is to provide the product. It's YOURS and MY jobs to teach people how to play the game if they can't seem to learn on their own.

Even the changes in Cataclysm are to make things seem "less confusing" for the average player. The change to talent trees, simplifying specs to make them more fun and less "pigeon-holed", making lower level questing an easier process to go through, and giving lower level players additional abilities to use so their options are not so shortly limited (like priests...smite, smite, smite...okay it's dead next smite). Blizzard's doing their part to make our jobs easier, but it's still our jobs to preach and teach things such as gameplay mechanics and, far more importantly, patience.

The reaction of the playerbase for "it's all about memes" is pretty much expected. It's just as bad that some of the casuals complain about stuff as it is the hardcore players who quit the game because "Blizz caters to bads now". That pendulum swings both ways. If you want people to get better, tell them how they can! If they don't listen, I have news for you. They would not have listened in BC, and they would not have listened in vanilla, and they won't listen in Cataclysm.

I like the system in place now, with a few needed tweaks (I oppose tier being bought through badges, and I support heroic mode being open immediately and the mechanics being a nearly different fight entirely). Still, you're going to have people that want to be carried, have no patience at all, expect everything handed to them on a silver platter, and overall are just people I would not wish to be around. But the system in place now didn't make them that way. It just made it easier for them to maybe get in a group.

Take some solace in this, however. I assure you, without spending their own gold, those people aren't killing Lich King or clearing much in heroic mode content. And even if they are, hey, provided they aren't in your guild it matters not in the first place. If you PuG, you would have had to deal with these things with or without GearScore, I assure you.

[Heleon]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ng-about-WoTLK

my opinion

[Bamboozles]

You're a baddie. <3 How's Exodus treating you?

And I agree, 100%.

[Koshun]

You sure it took 30 minutes?
I put together a raid yesterday that spent an hour actually finding people and got going after 15 minutes, then wiped on Jaxx, Faction Champs, and Anub when he hit is timer. Probably about a 3 hour raid including formation, wipes, waiting, loot distribution ( I go slow ), etc.

Just because you finish your raids slower than others doesn't mean your raid completion time is the minimum.

His claim is a bit ridiculous, given, but I've cleared it in 45 minutes. His arguement is valid.

[calinass]

Im sure I can clear toc10 like that too. All I would need is people who know the fights well enough that they can raid lead.

I form groups OK I guess, but when it comes to stuff like faction champs, valks, ranged positioning on fester, I cant really raid lead that. But I can raid lead simple stuff I suppose ><

[stillnotking]

Are you complaining about PUGs, or guild runs? PUGs generally are lazy, impatient, bad, whiny about loot, etc. But you have to remember that most of those people wouldn't even have been raiding at all in vanilla or BC.

Guild runs are the same as they always were.

[Daggy1111]

Although the system dosnt help, it is still mostly the players fault. Honestly they should have never allowed anyone to buy teir without some sort of raid badge, but it was a good idea(hell id even say great) to allow people to get somewhat similar gear with badges. Bascily, teir should be raid only and there sould be a somewhat simialr level of gear you can buy with badges/make with a prof(without a special mat) so you can level up alts and bring them into currant content, but not get a toon to 80 in 3 days and get currant level teir.

[Speshuled]

I agree with everything stated pretty much. Raiding has become a joke. I've actually wiped on Flame Leviathan 10 doing the weekly with some relatively decently geared people. No one could get out of their own way, stop flame vents, keep up pyrite stacks...I died a little inside seeing that.

On a similar subject, I was grouped with a warlock in ToC25 who downed the Lich King literally 9 days after hitting 80. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but it was impressive to say the least.

[Fenixdown]

I agree with everything stated pretty much. Raiding has become a joke. I've actually wiped on Flame Leviathan 10 doing the weekly with some relatively decently geared people. No one could get out of their own way, stop flame vents, keep up pyrite stacks...I died a little inside seeing that.

On a similar subject, I was grouped with a warlock in ToC25 who downed the Lich King literally 9 days after hitting 80. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but it was impressive to say the least.

A rogue who had just recently joined our guild and had not raided since Ulduar got his Lich King 25 kill about ten days after joining us. He came to our first raid still in two pieces of T6.

But he is a damn good rogue. We've already started taking him to our heroic ICC10 group that we run on Friday nights.

[Speshuled]

A rogue who had just recently joined our guild and had not raided since Ulduar got his Lich King 25 kill about ten days after joining us. He came to our first raid still in two pieces of T6.

My old guild kinda broke up at BQL after having alot of our core raiders leave and my current guild is working on Sindragosa10, (7% wipe ftl). We have fun raiding pretty casually but I'm itching to finally fire a shot at the Lich King. I want my title.

[Fheng]

I agree with almost everything that everyone is saying, naxx was hard in the beginning people complained and blizzard made it easier. Thats just retarded (excuse my language) i mean why people were 80 for a few weeks couldnt kill a boss in naxx so they made it to where you can run the place naked and full clear in vanilla raids were time consuming i remeber being on 5+ hours doing MC and that never got bored but im glad blizzard cleaned that up as for wrath raids there less time consuming but some fights are more complex. and yeah we had a guy in our guild who was a fresh 80 and full cleared icc kingslayer and 80 in a day hah

[rabbimojo]

...
Guild raiding is dyeing because you can just pug everything. I mean, there is still a lot of good guilds out there but compared to Vanilla and Bc, heck even early Wrath it seems to me that the guild dynamic of being in a raiding guild to do current content is dead.

I disagree more or less completely.

The OP's comments make it clear that things are not all puggable. If even raid guilds are so easily discouraged, pugs are an order of magnitude worse.

By my count, the number of serious raid guilds is the same as it's always been, if not more. It depends a lot on realm; some places have a long list of competetive guilds, some have at most one 25er doing any progression on each faction.

I think what has died is the idea that raiding is always done in a raid guild, and that's a pretty clear observation. However, that just means that a lot more people are raiding than previously.

---------- Post added 2010-07-24 at 09:10 PM ----------

I agree with almost everything that everyone is saying, naxx was hard in the beginning people complained and blizzard made it easier.
...

Naxx was really easy the day LK launched. My guild 1-shot almost every fight in there, and none of us saw naxx at 60 (or even went back during BC.) We were Hyjal/BT-geared, but that wasn't even critical. The raid was basically done the first night we had enough 80s to go.

[Badpaladin]

You're a baddie. <3 How's Exodus treating you?

And I agree, 100%.

NO YOU! It's fun, real life took over and forced to be unable to raid but it's nice being in a guild with people that can kill anything if you want to form a group, I get invited to stuff a lot if I'm online, and reserving the right to log off whenever you want as a casual kicks ass.

Regarding the points being brought up in this thread, it is a breath of fresh air to see somebody relatively undergeared outperforming most people.

[Aelith]

Hate the players, not the game.

[ledbythereaper]

we cleared togc in 22 minutes this week.

Lucky you, I gave up after spending an hour trying to do beasts... in a raid full of ICC25 hc geared players, so used to ICC being faceroll any content remotely difficult somehow makes them forget how to play.

[Hobocore]

You sure it took 30 minutes?
I put together a raid yesterday that spent an hour actually finding people and got going after 15 minutes, then wiped on Jaxx, Faction Champs, and Anub when he hit is timer. Probably about a 3 hour raid including formation, wipes, waiting, loot distribution ( I go slow ), etc.

You are definitely slow, we did 10 man tribute to insanity on alts/pugs last night in less than 20 minutes.

[Deleted]

The real problem is pugging raid-content and how WotLKs sesign caters towards it.

People only PuG raids because they can. If there's a sufficient challenge, they have a reason to get organized.


Once raid-content is designed for guilds, rather than pugs, you'll see more people getting organized and actually making an effort to kill a boss.

[nrross]

I totally agree. I didn't play in Vanilla, but raided in TBC. I remember trying to down Vashj, we went 2/3 nights per week for 3 hours each time for around 2 months before we downed her. That kind of determination is almost vanished from the game. We spent a fortune on repair bills/elixers/pots/flasks, wiped scores if not hundreds of times. We didn't bitch and quit, when we wiped we looked at what went wrong to try and learn and improve, not go "zomg fail grup" and quit.

And we would take people who didn't know the tactics. It was ok, as the raid leader would know and would explain. This is my biggest gripe with pug raiding - leaders see their role as loot master and little more.

I have to admit, I feel almost insulted to an extent that I need achi to do X and Y, I raided upto BT in TBC, undergeared and not knowing tactics till they were explained, I am pretty confident I can grasp most of the WotLK raid encounters. However most pug leaders wouldn't even try to explain.

And I suppose I cannot blame them, it is hard to give someone the benefit of the doubt when there are so many bad players who clearly not only don't know what they are doing, but make no attempt to learn.

[calinass]

And how geared were you?