Double Standard

[Direpanda]

I wanted to say all Paladin characters in WoW suck because of their old, tired cliche portrayals that seem to have not a single meaningful flaw. But that really applies to most WoW characters in the end.

Im going to say Alliance is the worst offender of this if only because of the whole Lady Prestor affair... the fact that all their bad calls can be traced down to an EVIL DRAGON WHO GAVE THEM PRETTY BAD ADVICE OR MAYBE HYPNOTIZED THEM I DONT KNOW is a clear symptom of "I-dont-want-my-faction-or-favorite-characters-to-fuck-up-ever" Disorder, IDWMFOFCTFUED for short.
Of course, there are many examples in both factions (lolzdemonblood), and I dont want to start to make a list with "my faction has less instances of blatant, shoe-horned justifications".

Just putting it out there: dont judge a character by whether they make good decisions or not, but whether their bad decisions are interesting.

There seems to be a lot less of this in Cata. Thrall admits that he's not what he could have been; Sylvie goes all Lich Queen; Varian and Garrosh have their obvious flaws; etc.

Blizz has always gravitated towards making the peacemongers infallible. Perhaps because the alternative—peacemongers making bad decisions—makes it hard to take them seriously. I'm sure they'll be less prominent in Cata, though. Still, I'd love to see a peacemonger make some really bad decision that results in the slaughter of many innocents, and a warmonger be justified as a major plot point.

It's also hard to make players believe that their leadership is basically good and fighting the good fight without a couple the-advisor-was-an-evil-dragon mind-control plot devices. And players want to feel like, on the whole, they are agents of a just cause.

Many Paladin characters do have meaningful flaws and struggles, but they may not be obvious. The Blood Elves are pretty straightforward. Remember Aldor No More? There's another. Turalyon blames himself for Lothar's death and may have led the charge into Outland more for personal reasons than for service. Uther admits that he struggled for a long time to forgive Arthas. Oh, yeah, and Arthas himself represents the best case of a fallen Paladin. Bolvar was pretty badass, but he's supposed to be a spiritual inheritor of Lothar. He represents the best we can be, which makes his death all the more meaningful.

Tirion is a bit of a Mary Sue ... and that is a major turn-off for his character. Honestly though, that's poor writing born of trying to make him a character whom everyone will like.

[Elementium]

Sounds like someone needs to figure out that Game mechanics don't equal lore.

Tirion was frozen so the Lich King fight wouldn't just be us watching the fight happen. Chances are whenever it is written in detail, Tirion will be the one who beat The Lich king. Which is fine.. The Lich king by himself was never the threat anyway. His power came from his massive army of Undead.

[McRibbisBack]

Tirion is fine Thrall is worse.
"LOL I GOT CAPTURED BY LEVEL 10 ALLIANCE DERP"
"OH HAI GALLYWIX, YOU TRIED TO KILL ME, I KNOW WHY DONT YOU BE THE LEADER DERPY DERP"

Thrall sends you back as the faction leader of the Blidgewater cartel, but, he sent Gallywix ahead of you to talk to Garrosh, and Gallywix manipulates Garrosh (because he is made of cheese) and Gallywix takes your jerb.

[Midgetface]

Sounds like someone needs to figure out that Game mechanics don't equal lore.

Tirion was frozen so the Lich King fight wouldn't just be us watching the fight happen. Chances are whenever it is written in detail, Tirion will be the one who beat The Lich king. Which is fine.. The Lich king by himself was never the threat anyway. His power came from his massive army of Undead.

And this is just bad writing anyway. Arthas, in a weakened state, had overpowered Illidan -- and now Tirion, who was supposed not to be the best fighter ever but devout leader and what not, comes in with the strength of a million deus ex machinas and slays him in one fell swoop. Even if the fight is prolonged or what not in the novelized version or whatever it is they release, its still sloppy storytelling.

There seems to be a lot less of this in Cata. Thrall admits that he's not what he could have been; Sylvie goes all Lich Queen; Varian and Garrosh have their obvious flaws; etc.

Blizz has always gravitated towards making the peacemongers infallible. Perhaps because the alternative—peacemongers making bad decisions—makes it hard to take them seriously. I'm sure they'll be less prominent in Cata, though. Still, I'd love to see a peacemonger make some really bad decision that results in the slaughter of many innocents, and a warmonger be justified as a major plot point.

It's also hard to make players believe that their leadership is basically good and fighting the good fight without a couple the-advisor-was-an-evil-dragon mind-control plot devices. And players want to feel like, on the whole, they are agents of a just cause.

Many Paladin characters do have meaningful flaws and struggles, but they may not be obvious. The Blood Elves are pretty straightforward. Remember Aldor No More? There's another. Turalyon blames himself for Lothar's death and may have led the charge into Outland more for personal reasons than for service. Uther admits that he struggled for a long time to forgive Arthas. Oh, yeah, and Arthas himself represents the best case of a fallen Paladin. Bolvar was pretty badass, but he's supposed to be a spiritual inheritor of Lothar. He represents the best we can be, which makes his death all the more meaningful.

Tirion is a bit of a Mary Sue ... and that is a major turn-off for his character. Honestly though, that's poor writing born of trying to make him a character whom everyone will like.

Eh, one can only hope. Thing is, we need more characters like Garithos, that are openly flawed, but with some redeeming aspects - which Garithos does not have.

I think Arthas is a terrible example because in the game itself, his heel-face turn is completely unjustified... there is no progression to it. In the game, it fails. In the book, maybe it works out better.

But yeah, I agree with you in that Blizz should focus on making more characters that we don't all like.

Less Velen, less Tirion, less Thrall; more Saurfang, Sylvanas, Staghelm.

They need to stop killing our Staghelms as well.

[Shroud]

And this is just bad writing anyway. Arthas, in a weakened state, had overpowered Illidan -- and now Tirion, who was supposed not to be the best fighter ever but devout leader and what not, comes in with the strength of a million deus ex machinas and slays him in one fell swoop. Even if the fight is prolonged or what not in the novelized version or whatever it is they release, its still sloppy storytelling.

Eh, one can only hope. Thing is, we need more characters like Garithos, that are openly flawed, but with some redeeming aspects - which Garithos does not have.

I think Arthas is a terrible example because in the game itself, his heel-face turn is completely unjustified... there is no progression to it. In the game, it fails. In the book, maybe it works out better.

But yeah, I agree with you in that Blizz should focus on making more characters that we don't all like.

Less Velen, less Tirion, less Thrall; more Saurfang, Sylvanas, Staghelm.

They need to stop killing our Staghelms as well.

the Lich King was obviously not at full power we destoryed his heart which weakened him enough to try an kill us on the spot meaning he was worried about tirion.... plus hewas bombarded by plague from the foresaken that would kill a lesser entity in five seconds flat.

Also having the Ashbringer helps aswell if the stories are true that it was forged from a naru core then you bet your ass its believable ....maybe a little far off but really game mechancis suck in telling this story hey they even gave you a cut scene thats more than most mmo's would do for you.. so suck it up.

[Midgetface]

so suck it up.

No.

[Direpanda]

And this is just bad writing anyway. Arthas, in a weakened state, had overpowered Illidan -- and now Tirion, who was supposed not to be the best fighter ever but devout leader and what not, comes in with the strength of a million deus ex machinas and slays him in one fell swoop. Even if the fight is prolonged or what not in the novelized version or whatever it is they release, its still sloppy storytelling.

The scene was epic enough, though. It's really only in retrospect that it looks iffy. For me, anyway. I agree that a less deus-ex kinda scene might have been nice, but let's not forget the difference between the encounter (which is restricted, to some degree, by game mechanics) and the story (which is not).

Eh, one can only hope. Thing is, we need more characters like Garithos, that are openly flawed, but with some redeeming aspects - which Garithos does not have.

I think Arthas is a terrible example because in the game itself, his heel-face turn is completely unjustified... there is no progression to it. In the game, it fails. In the book, maybe it works out better.

But yeah, I agree with you in that Blizz should focus on making more characters that we don't all like.

Less Velen, less Tirion, less Thrall; more Saurfang, Sylvanas, Staghelm.

They need to stop killing our Staghelms as well.

This would be ideal. Blizzard needs to give players a little credit, I think, and trust that they won't all faction-transfer in droves if their heroes are a little less than pure. Fortunately, they seem to be doing exactly that. Although I still don't like how Garrosh is written ...

Arthas' fall in the game (WC3) seems a little abrupt, but still believable, and making it more gradual would have been bad for the pacing of the game. I think it's better in the book (aside from the Invincible subplot, which is full of narm), although it doesn't approach truly great fall-from-grace stories like Paradise Lost or Faust (or even the Eisenhorn trilogy). Again, game mechanics vs story.

[NeverKnowsBest]

So one thing I have not understood since the end of WOTLK was revealed is why is it Tirion's fight? I read the lore about him, and it doesn't really make sense. The plague and Arthas did nothing more to him than anyone else. Darion and Sylvanas on the other hand ( Jania and Wrynn to a lesser extent) had a personal vendetta against Arthas. I thought for sure one of them, or maybe a combination of those two would end up saving the day.

Tiron might of made more sense to me if the Lich King was a new entity, the niether but both at the same time, like Blizzard had stated until they lolretconned Arthas as the dominant personality. Even if that had been the case it seems any of Warcrafts heroes could of stepped up to do the job he did. But at the end of the day the Lich King turned out to just be Arthas, and someone else would have made better sense.

Maybe I missed something, this has bothered me for sometime now, and I made an account just to ask this question.

[Midgetface]

So one thing I have not understood since the end of WOTLK was revealed is why is it Tirion's fight? I read the lore about him, and it doesn't really make sense. The plague and Arthas did nothing more to him than anyone else. Darion and Sylvanas on the other hand ( Jania and Wrynn to a lesser extent) had a personal vendetta against Arthas. I thought for sure one of them, or maybe a combination of those two would end up saving the day.

Tiron might of made more sense to me if the Lich King was a new entity, the niether but both at the same time, like Blizzard had stated until they lolretconned Arthas as the dominant personality. Even if that had been the case it seems any of Warcrafts heroes could of stepped up to do the job he did. But at the end of the day the Lich King turned out to just be Arthas, and someone else would have made better sense.

Maybe I missed something, this has bothered me for sometime now, and I made an account just to ask this question.

It crossed my mind, but not having a nemesis kill his is part of making things interesting... sure, there were people who had a better stake at killing Arthas... how epic would it have been if Jaina had done it? Suck up the tampons and actually go to town.

But no, they went with Tirion because this is a paladin expansion, it always was.