Sub need Energy Regen ability

[Prandur]

Um, guys, backstab is a 175% dagger attack that costs 60 energy.
hemohorrage is a 199% dagger attack that costs 30 energy and also increases bleed damage by 30%
which attack do you think sub uses?

HaT has also been nerfed to a 2s cooldown, which according to my tests on beta, is barely enough to keep SnD and Rupture running without problems. It also no longer works on your own criticals, unlike live.

Serrated Blades is a gamble, a buffed rupture will do more damage than evisc. 40% chance to lower your dps! \o/

If both BS and hemo are talented, BS has 30% higher chance of critting, 30% additional bonus damage from opportunity, and it costs 40 energy vs 29 for talented hemo.
Personally, I have a feeling BS might just win out.

---------- Post added 2010-07-25 at 10:36 AM ----------

I did use equal Item level items and they are all 4 ONE handers meaning either main or off hand perhaps you should research more.Or reread my post THE first two (i ignored dual wield and just did the numbers if you want dual weild then double the numbers i posted) the first in each group was a dagger and the second in each group was the camparable Item Level Axe. And as for using the numbers from wowhead funny i am on MMO-champion so i used the Numbers from OMG MMO-champion( Ambush
8 Ambush the target, causing 190% weapon damage plus 699.105 to the target (274.93% plus 1011.863 if a dagger is equipped). Must be stealthed and behind the target. Awards 2 combo points.)

Not that it matters that NOT what this thread is about if you care to discuss this further then send me a pm or start a thread about ambushes damage and leave the SUB needs an Energy talent thread to go back to what the oP started it for please and thank you

Your math is wrong.
The additional damage is not multiplied by the bs multiplier.
The correct formula is (weapon damage + ((AP/14)*1.7) * 2.75) + bonus damage.

And just because something is a one-hander doesn't mean you use it in either hand.
Any non-dagger under 2.4 speed is not a main hand weapon, whether or not you can actually equip it in the mh is irrelevant.

[Deleted]

And still combat weapons have a much higher damage range (and max. damage) than daggers therefore making the 190% multiplier for non-daggers about the same as 275% for daggers.

[Deleted]

Um, guys, backstab is a 175% dagger attack that costs 60 energy.
hemohorrage is a 199% dagger attack that costs 30 energy and also increases bleed damage by 30%
which attack do you think sub uses?

HaT has also been nerfed to a 2s cooldown, which according to my tests on beta, is barely enough to keep SnD and Rupture running without problems. It also no longer works on your own criticals, unlike live.

Serrated Blades is a gamble, a buffed rupture will do more damage than evisc. 40% chance to lower your dps! \o/

HaT not giving CP from your own crits is 100% a bug, also Backstab does more damage than a Hemorrhage, do you even play a rogue?

[shadstep]

blizz is aware that sub is energy starved

now please, for the love of god,

cataclysm will fix it™

[celinamuna]

Ambush the target, causing 190% weapon damage plus 699.105 to the target (274.93% plus 1011.863 if a dagger is equipped). Must be stealthed and behind the target. Awards 2 combo points.

Using lvl 85 weps
http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/55067/ - axe
http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/55068/ - dagger

Axe dmg (w/o AP)
(462.5*2.6)*1.9 +700 = 2984.75 non crit

Dagger dmg (w/o AP)
(462.5*1.8)*2.74+1012 = 3293.05 non crit

Difference : 308.3

With AP adding 400 dps (can't remember AP values)

Axe : ((462.5+400)*2.6)*1.9+700=4960.75
Dagger: ((462.5+400)*1.8)*2.74+1012=5265.85
Difference : 305.1

To calculate the amount of +dps we need in order for 2.6 speed wep to be > 1.8 speed dagger we can use
(X)*2.6*1.9+700=x*2.74*1.8+1012
X*4.94+700=X*4.932+1012
0.068X=312
X= 4588.23529411765 dps , aka we're not getting this any time soon.


If we deside to look at the same model but with 2.7 speed non dagger we get

Non AP : 3072.625
+400 dps AP : 5124.625
DPS at which 2.7 speed wep = 1.8 speed dagger : (0.198 dmg per each dps) 1575.75757575758 which is a) a lot closer, b) probably achievable in 2nd-3rd tier of cata (granted we get access to 2.7 speed phys dps wep)

Also, it's sami safe to assume, that the 3rd version of barmen shanker (aka brewfest dagger) adjusted to lvl 85, will blow most weps out of water based on ambush dmg (2.0 speed ftw)

[Sarcasm]

Backstabbing with a mace sounds kind of bad-ass...

Backcrush?

[Prandur]

Using lvl 85 weps
http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/55067/ - axe
http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/55068/ - dagger

Axe dmg (w/o AP)
(462.5*2.6)*1.9 +700 = 2984.75 non crit

Dagger dmg (w/o AP)
(462.5*1.8)*2.74+1012 = 3293.05 non crit

Difference : 308.3

With AP adding 400 dps (can't remember AP values)

Axe : ((462.5+400)*2.6)*1.9+700=4960.75
Dagger: ((462.5+400)*1.8)*2.74+1012=5265.85
Difference : 305.1

To calculate the amount of +dps we need in order for 2.6 speed wep to be > 1.8 speed dagger we can use
(X)*2.6*1.9+700=x*2.74*1.8+1012
X*4.94+700=X*4.932+1012
0.068X=312
X= 4588.23529411765 dps , aka we're not getting this any time soon.


If we deside to look at the same model but with 2.7 speed non dagger we get

Non AP : 3072.625
+400 dps AP : 5124.625
DPS at which 2.7 speed wep = 1.8 speed dagger : (0.198 dmg per each dps) 1575.75757575758 which is a) a lot closer, b) probably achievable in 2nd-3rd tier of cata (granted we get access to 2.7 speed phys dps wep)

Also, it's sami safe to assume, that the 3rd version of barmen shanker (aka brewfest dagger) adjusted to lvl 85, will blow most weps out of water based on ambush dmg (2.0 speed ftw)

AP contribution for specials is AP / 14 * 1.7 or 2.4, depending on if it's a dagger or not. AP/14*weaponspeed for white hits.
So it goes something like:
Axe dmg (7000 AP)
((462.5*2.6)+(7000/14)*2.4)*1.9 +700 = 5264.75 non crit

Dagger dmg (7000 AP)
((462.5*1.8)+(7000/14)*1.7)*2.74+1012 = 5622.05 non crit