In Defense of Sylvanas

[Faerillis]

I stopped reading your entire argument when you dismissed Lore behind A'dal talking of the Light's Paradise as an employee trying to comfort themselves.

You can't pick and choose lore. Come back when you understand this. Until then, I won't bother responding to this, and I'll only point out that I've responded to all of this in previous post. Read before you post.

Every other lore source says No Paradise. Crusader Bridenbrad has been told time and time again to be an homage to a real case of something fighting cancer. Nothing about that quest is of consequence and it is irrelevant to lore and only meant as an homage. The mention of paradise is fleeting and lacking specificity. It could simply mean peace.

However you are right. I can't ignore Me'dan because he's ridiculous. I can't ignore Tyrande and Malfurion's wedding by a leader of a polyamorous race, despite the fact that their race does not believe in marriage. etc, etc.

When you read this you will find my a noted change in my original post.

[Lightfist]

Every other lore source says No Paradise. Crusader Bridenbrad has been told time and time again to be an homage to a real case of something fighting cancer. Nothing about that quest is of consequence and it is irrelevant to lore and only meant as an homage. The mention of paradise is fleeting and lacking specificity. It could simply mean peace.

However you are right. I can't ignore Me'dan because he's ridiculous. I can't ignore Tyrande and Malfurion's wedding by a leader of a polyamorous race, despite the fact that their race does not believe in marriage. etc, etc.

When you read this you will find my a noted change in my original post.

I agree that Me'dan and the wedding were both terrible...but they were also retcons.

As far as I know, it is never explicitly stated that there is no such paradise. If I remember, actually, the humans in Warcraft 1 spoke of Heaven and God before it was retconned.

The quest was a tribute, but as it stands, it's also lore.

[Gestopft]

As i will say (and probably always will) its all about choice if she gave the newly born forsaken a choice in the mater we would be fine, but no, she charms them and forces them into slavery. The ends NEVER justify that kind of means, mind control, and subjugation of free thought is THE MOST EVIL THING IMAGINABLE, and the banshee queen is responsible for it.

Yes, controlling others is very immoral 'cough' [Enslave Demon] 'cough' [Raise Dead] 'cough' [Army of Mob Repositioning] 'cough' [Mind Control!]

The point which the OP makes, that so many people are missing, isn't so much that Sylvanas is right or wrong, but that the things she is doing have already been happening. The biggest difference is the scale at which Sylvanas is doing it.

[Pantelija]

The quest was a TRIBUTE, but as it stands, it's also lore.

Only a tribute and nothing more

[DatNewNew92]

What you forget is the lifeform in question was stripped of its soul and morality when reincarnated they don't feel love pity or remorse.
They essentially feed on hatred, vengeance and cold calculated logic.

As for sylvanas not being comparable to the lichking thats bullcrap and you know it, they both want to destroy all life.
Not just the alliance but ALL LIFE, sylvanas is simply using the horde until which time she no longer needs them.

Not all Forsaken are cold, some just want to be left alone or continue living. They didn't get that when the Alliance wanted Lordaeron for themselves. They were rejected by the very people they once considered brothers and sisters.

They're bitter and resentful. But far from soulless. Most just blindly follow Sylvannas, and look the other way when it comes to her actions.

[Faerillis]

I agree that Me'dan and the wedding were both terrible...but they were also retcons.

As far as I know, it is never explicitly stated that there is no such paradise. If I remember, actually, the humans in Warcraft 1 spoke of Heaven and God before it was retconned.

The quest was a tribute, but as it stands, it's also lore.

Shit I hate when I forget shit about lore. Mind you I haven't read up lore on the after-life of WoW in a very long time but you are correct in that nothing is firmly stated (though Knaak has some people think Mages get condemned(is it really a crime to kill someone who has slaughtered that much lore?)) . Nevertheless I do address this in my modified argument.

[Lightfist]

Shit I hate when I forget shit about lore. Mind you I haven't read up lore on the after-life of WoW in a very long time but you are correct in that nothing is firmly stated (though Knaak has some people think Mages get condemned(is it really a crime to kill someone who has slaughtered that much lore?)) . Nevertheless I do address this in my modified argument.

I wouldn't think it's a crime. I hope it isn't.

[MortalWombat]

I wouldn't think it's a crime. I hope it isn't.

Someone kill him and find out.

[gasattack23]

stop whining alliance fanboy. be glad that you've got those neat worgen as a class, and all that blizzard gives you. u get lots of cool things then u look for something to whine about. that makes no sense and makes you look like an idiot.

[Lightfist]

Only a tribute and nothing more

Yeah, you show me where is says that tribute quest don't count towards lore, especially when it's an entire chain involving several lore figures.

Yes, controlling others is very immoral 'cough' [Enslave Demon] 'cough' [Raise Dead] 'cough' [Army of Mob Repositioning] 'cough' [Mind Control!]

The point which the OP makes, that so many people are missing, isn't so much that Sylvanas is right or wrong, but that the things she is doing have already been happening. The biggest difference is the scale at which Sylvanas is doing it.

Enslave demons is a demon. No, I don't give a shit about demons, because demons are NEVER GOOD.

Raise dead as I have said 100 times before is a soulless corpse.

Army is the same thing.

Mind Control is your only real argument here. I do not agree with it.

[Bowen Dragonheart]

Ok...I told myself I would no longer get involved in forums as I have found about a year ago that really they are the places where respectful, intelligent conversation and ideas go to get beaten, robbed, violated, and then thrown off a flaming bridge, but I will give this a try.

In terms of the actions of Slyvannas I wish to throw an idea out there if people will indulge me. We all know in WPL the quest where you take out Felstone Field you are told that it is a post manned by Alliance soilders in order to supply the Andorhal forces with food, but something about that seemed....off. I can understand under that scinario that most would be working the farm in order to gain maxium production, but even then there would be a few of them who would remain in armor and weapons in order to defend the position and guard the men in the field. However, no one at the farm seem to have any soilder gear, and furthermore there seems to be no arms and armor on the farm at all. This could be a missing part that the devs never fully implemented or perhaps I missed them in the video of the quest.

In addition in the Silverpine quest when you are sent to attack the mages in Ambermill, you are told they have gone into the other demimenstion to await orders from the Allaince in order to attack the Forsaken, yet again something seems to be missing in this scenario as well. For one thing if they are in a completely other dimension that only Kirin Tor Magi can access, how would the Alliance communicate with the mages inside? Furthermore we are shown no signs of an intercepted communication, battle plan, Alliance banners, tabards, or even the mages themselves calling out "For the Allaince!" or "Die Horde scum!". (Again I could have missed this in the Jesse Cox video as I watched it in low res.) It would seem for the most part that they simply took themselves into a seperate dimension out of concern for the recent agressive expansion of the Forsaken, especially given the final words of the Archmage are "Flee! Do not let them turn you!".

I am wondering...are these attacks justified as the Forsaken commanders and Slyvannas wish us to believe? Or are these merely lies being handed down to their subordinates and provide justification for taking agressive action while avoiding outright conflict with neutral parties (Kirin Tor; Argent Crusade and Cenarion Circle for the civies, if they were civillians, and undoing their work in the WPL.)

Note: I am aware that the quest for the Forsake call the mages at Ambermill former mages of the Kirin Tor but they seem to be attached to the Kirin Tor by wearing their tabards and wearing their signet rings. In fact in the following quest you are told by the quest giver her wants you to kill mages at the Dalaran crater (those out of an conflict at this point) simply because he wants revenge. (This is of course apart from the quest of killing the Archmage for his ring.)

[Gestopft]

Enslave demons is a demon. No, I don't give a shit about demons, because demons are NEVER GOOD.

Not caring for demons isn't an argument. Demons are still sentient beings that are being enslaved.

Raise dead as I have said 100 times before is a soulless corpse.

Army is the same thing.

Proof? I'm not arguing, I just want to know where you get that.

[HavokHeart]

I think we all need to take a step back and look at Garrosh and what he is doing to Cairne and Vol'jin as well as Sylvanas.

I also think of garrosh as a spitting image of his father. Basically a moron.

[Deleted]

Raise dead as I have said 100 times before is a soulless corpse.

Army is the same thing.

Pretty sure when you make your first ghouls in the DK starting zone they call you "Mama/Dada", obviously morbid humour but if also implying genuine infant-like affection on the part of the ghoul it makes the [Death Pact] talent rather horrifying and probably makes the Ebon Knights a lot more sinister than our dear Dark Lady.

[HalcyonicPlague]

I don't know... raising something from the dead and giving them semi-sentience (though I've yet to see much that actually states that they're being mind controlled because Sylvanas does not have the means to do so) or raising the dead and playing with their corpses as weapons like the Death Knights do.

[Contrary Jerry]

She needs to be removed from the game.

[Rukari]

Necromancy was developed by the Nathrezim. It does not occur naturally.

The Curse of Flesh was produced by the Old Gods. However, flesh beings exist without it.

Undead are unnatural. There is no way around it. This is why the pillars in Sholazzar basin kill the Scourge if they get close to them. It is why undead would be vaporized if they got close to Ysera's shrine (excluding the Forsaken, who are not by her will).

That being said, I do not wish the for the destruction of undead simply because they are undead. I just don't want them to go out of their way to create MORE undead.

The entire reason anyone can identify with their plight is because it was forced on them...when they create it for others, there's no plight to be had. It just becomes Sylvanas raising people and charming them so she can continue to play queen.

Was it developed by the Nathrezim, or was there the potential for that use that was simply unlocked by the Nathrezim? If magic always existed that was capable of raising corpses and its just that no one knew how to harness it in that way, then its still natural.

If Forsaken are not vaporized by Ysera's will, then it sounds like they've been accepted by her as legitimate forms of life.

Forsaken are a unique life form and they have every right to continue the existence of their race.

Worgen are unnatural, and cured Worgen are even more unnatural, so they should stop spreading their curse as well. And whether flesh is unnatural or not, Humans, Gnomes, and Dwarves are unnatural - they are unintended deviations from their original forms, and everytime they breed they're spreading the old gods corruption.

---------- Post added 2010-07-27 at 02:20 PM ----------

Raise dead as I have said 100 times before is a soulless corpse.

Defenders of Darrowshire
Many of the defenders fell at the battle of Darrowshire. And many roam again as the ghastly servants of the Scourge! Find these poor souls and end their misery!

Hunt cannibal ghouls, gibbering ghouls and diseased flayers. Many of these fiends were once the good folk of Darrowshire and destroying their forms now will set their souls free.

Ghouls have souls

http://static.wowhead.com/uploads/sc...rmal/18870.jpg

[Deleted]

I'm seeing a lot of Sylvanas hate lately and which while its not unexpected given how alliance fanboys can be, it is wholly unjustified. So let's take a look at the basic arguments leveled against her and see how legitimate they are.

Some amount of story spoilers, so consider yourself warned.


Argument: "Sylvanas is using former agents of the Scourge - Val Kyr."
Counter: Both factions are using former agents of the Scourge - Death Knights.

Whilst that is true, Death Knights where in their past lives heroes who died fighting the Scourge, the Val'kyr are scourge and if you go by one of the dungeons are people willing to become scourge.

Argument: "Necromancy is unnatural and evil."
Counter: Necromancy is no more unnatural than any other form of magic, it's simply taboo.
Furthermore, the existence of Death Knights and Warlocks within both factions shows that 'evil' magics like Death magic and Fel magic are given a pass if the cause is considered worthy.
If the end justifies the means for Warlocks and Death Knights, then it should for Sylvanas as well, what nobler cause is there than the continuation of your species?

Different again, DKs and Worlocks summon mindless undead and daemons, Sylvanas is forcing the souls of people back into their corpses with little choice if they want the curse of undeath, Necromancy is the foulest of all magics and has never ended well for the user.

Argument: "Sylvanas is raising an undead army to do her bidding... just like Arthas"
Counter: Forsaken have free will, the Scourge don't, as such, the only similarity is that both armies are undead. If all armies of undead are synonymous does that mean all armies of living are equivalent to each other as well?
The Forsaken are 'born' under her leadership which is no different than any child being born in Stormwind being ruled over by Varian. Welcome to monarchies.
Oh, and you know what other raised dead don't have free will? Ghouls.
Raising a mindless undead army to carry out orders? Gee, that sounds familiar. Oh right, Army of the Dead, that DK spell.
Death Knights are more evil than Sylvanas and use far more questionable measures, they just have less authority and aren't in the spotlight.

Is it really different? She forces people to become Forsaken (same way Arthas did). Also this is what she does to Koltira

Upon meeting Ravensun, it is revealed that she is in reality Sylvanas Windrunner. After the Alliance is defeated, Sylvanas confronts Koltira about the truce with Thassarian, and scolds him for being weak. A portal to the Undercity is opened and Koltira is pulled through by a hooked chain, where Sylvanas will attempt to purge him of his compassion for Thassarian and make him more of a servant of the Horde - more specifically, a servant of Sylvanas and the Forsaken



Argument: "Sylvanas uses the plague despite Garrosh's orders, she's committing war crimes."
Counter: First - There are no treaties in Azeroth preventing the usage of such weapons, not to mention these weapons are no more horrific than the spells players use on a regular basis, the only difference here is scale. Disease spells are just as much biological weapons, and curses could be consider even worse. Warlocks go around stealing souls.

Second - What authority does Garrosh really have over Sylvanas? Vol'jin likewise not only defies Garrosh, but threatens to kill him and everyone sings his praises. Cairne challenged him to a duel for leadership, I don't see anyone calling him out for his gross insubordination.

Garrosh is her Warchief if she doesn't want to obey him then she can leave the Horde, a for Vol'jin he says what he says for the good of the horde, same with Cairne....all the banshee queen cares about is her self and her people. As for the treaties it doesn't matter she was ordered not to use her foul plague again and yet she does with little care for who she kills, it wouldn't surprise me if she ordered the attack on the horde and alliance at Wrathgate



Argument: "Forsaken don't have Free Will"
Counter: (Recent Lore Spoilers)
The betrayal of Putress and Godfrey, as well as her watching Koltira in disguise, all point to this as being an entirely baseless accusation.
The only evidence you ever get of Forsaken being mind controlled is when Sylvanas has you charm newly raised Forsaken in WPL, however, this happens after she gets killed by a newly raised Godfrey, thus pointing at this as a new development and safety measure.
Furthermore, Alliance apparently also charm militia men into being cannon fodder, which is arguable worse. So if that's evidence that Forsaken are mind controlled, then it's also evidence that humans are mind controlled.

I wouldn't compare what humans do to the militia men to what Sylvanas does to Koltira, as for Putress we only have her word he turned against her, all those years and she had no idea?



Argument: "Sylvanas thinks undeath is a curse, so it's evil for her to bring other people into undeath."
Counter: I hear people say "Life sucks" all the time, I suppose we should call Child Services if they ever have kids and lock them in prison?

That is your best defence? really? been forced to live again in an existence most of the Forsaken hate and you compare it to a throw away comment. What next? will you compare HiV to the common cold?

Argument: "Sylvanas is emo"
Counter: Displaying sad emotions doesn't automatically make someone emo, especially when they have every reason to be sad.
And if Sylvanas is emo then Varian is butthurt.
Oh boo-hoo, you were a gladiator, get over it, cry baby.

Varian didn't spend the rest of his life crying in a crypt nor did he spend every waking hour planning revenge no matter the cost, Varian wanted revenge...sylvanas was obsessed with it.


Argument: "Sylvanas has gone mad!"
Counter: If Sylvanas's actions can be classified as anything, it's necessary. She needs to replenish the ranks of the Forsaken or they will go extinct. They will all die out. That is a fact.
You can't justifiably call Sylvanas 'mad' or 'crazy' for choosing the survival of her people as her first priority. She's their leader, that should be her first priority above all else.
Yes some of them are raised specifically to fight...during the middle of a battle, during a war, desperate times = desperate measures.
That doesn't mean they all are raised as expendable shock troops, no more than some children being raised to be fighters means that that race only breeds as a military investment.

Undeath is a curse and they should be allowed to die out, to feel the warm embrace of death not the frozen grasp of undeath, Sylvanas has gone mad because everything she originally fought against she is becoming and now with the death of Arthas she has nothing left to focus on...it wouldnt surprise me if she does go mad at some point.

(As Suggested by Xeraluin)
Argument: "Sylvanas is forcing 'innocents' into undeath"
Counter: Crowley forces 'innocents' into worgenism, telling them they can partake in the curse and join him, or he'll leave them to fend for themselves against the Forsaken, to put it frankly, leave them to die.

They still had an option, Die a man and be reborn Forsaken or become a worgen,fight and defend their land with the strength of a wolf and if they fall they have no fear of undeath.




You call the haters alliance fanbois, but you are the one using weak points to defend someone who in all reality is no longer the Banshee queen she was.

The greatest fanboys are the ones that can see the flaws in their heroes and accept them. I used to like her as a character but as of late i cannot stand her and its because of her actions that i faction changed to alliance.

[Rukari]

They still had an option, Die a man and be reborn Forsaken or become a worgen,fight and defend their land with the strength of a wolf and if they fall they have no fear of undeath.

You call the haters alliance fanbois, but you are the one using weak points to defend someone who in all reality is no longer the Banshee queen she was.

The greatest fanboys are the ones that can see the flaws in their heroes and accept them. I used to like her as a character but as of late i cannot stand her and its because of her actions that i faction changed to alliance.

You are the one using weak points to defend genocide. You want an entire race to go extinct. Other races wouldn't make that sacrifice if put in that position, so how can you ask it of them?
I'm pretty sure they attacked Algalon to prevent him from relaying a message that the planet and its life were too corrupt and needed to be purged.

Also, you can't on one hand complain about Sylvanas not following Garrosh's orders and then complain about Sylvanas punishing Koltiras for not following her orders, and his act is more treasonous considering he's making deals with the enemy. I seem to recall Garithos sentencing Kael'thas and the surviving Elves to death for consorting with the naga, so it's not like Alliance are innocent in this regard either (Yeah. And Forsaken are the genocidal ones? Way to try to finish what the Scourge started.)

Sylvanas watched her entire elven civilization destroyed before her very eyes (and now you and the alliance want to do it again to her new people). The sacking of Stormwind was horrible, but it was just a city, they recovered and rebuilt.
The Scourge slew more than 90% of the high elven population, devastating their culture (wowwiki)
Quel'Thalas's destruction was more than just property and some lives, it was the demise of the High Elf civilization. They never recovered and what's left of them are refugees. The lands still bears the scars.

Varian watched Bolvar die and went on a roaring rampage of revenge, one person he cared about and some red shirts vs an entire civilization - everything she loved and held dear.

She was then brought back and forced to do the bidding of the man that did this, as were her brethren. She was finally able to break free of his control, but she only managed to save some of them.

Varian was a gladiator. He had to fight for his captors entertainment, captors that let him go. Oh, and he made friends and never lost. That's it. Wow. Yeah. Such hardships he has endured!