Cataclysm PvP Trees (this can apply to PvE too)

[Noverias]

Rather than derail threads on individual classes or specializations, I thought I would address some common questions or misperceptions in this one thread.

We don't consider "bloat" a bad word. Players typically say that when there are more talents than they can possibly get. That's the whole idea. When you run out of interesting talents, then that's when we think we have a problem.

Related, if we do our jobs right, you are going to run out of dps talents (or healing talents if you're a healer, or mitigation talents if you're a tank). We don't want every talent to feel mandatory since you are prohibited from getting them all. We want you to have choices.

We don't consider every talent that doesn't directly lead to higher dps to be a "PvP talent." Survivability is a big deal in Cataclysm. In that vein, talents that keep you alive (or help healers conserve mana) are indirectly dps talents.

Related, many trees lost a lot of true PvP talents, such as dispel resistance or mechanic duration reductions. These are the kind of talents I describe as "arms races," where you need a counter to the ability someone else is using to try to counter you. We'd rather reel the whole thing in a little and make things like crowd control or dispels as powerful or as weak as they need to be baseline rather than assuming you have talents that make them less powerful.

We are providing some damage talents for healers. For the most part, those are optional talents for leveling, soloing, PvP or times in dungeons or raids when you don't need to heal.

Likewise, we don't assume tanks need to pick up every single dps talent in order to generate sufficient threat. You'll likely need some threat talents, but since you're probably dipping into a dps tree to get some of those, you're going to find way more than you can afford.

In most cases, raid buff talents are cheap and often have selfish bonuses. If they lack a selfish bonus, it's because we consider the talent so compelling that you'd probably want it when solo anyway. We see a lot of "I'll skip that talent, because someone else will bring that buff," but obviously that logic starts to fail when everyone comes to that conclusion. Also make sure you're familiar with how some of the buffs and debuffs have changed for Cataclysm. We are trying to make it even easier to get the big ones, especially for 10-player raids.

We aren't designing PvP vs. PvE trees. Ultimately, we consider a talent specialization to be a stylistic choice. However, given the challenges of nailing both PvP and PvE balance, as a consolation prize it's nice when at least there are no dead trees. If Frost and Arms weren't raiding juggernauts, at least they did have a place in the game in Lich King. But Cataclysm represents an opportunity to try again, so we hope to see Arms and Frost raiding, and Fury and Fire in PvP.

We aren't overhauling every single class. We are changing paladins quite a bit, and the resource systems for hunters and warlocks and Balance druids have changed. I get the sense some of you are waiting for that magical build in which half of your talents have been scrapped in favor of new ones, and in many cases, those changes just aren't coming. That's not to say we're done with any tree.

We haven't been super concerned about numbers yet, and we aren't at all concerned about glyphs yet. It's helpful if you note abilities that seem to have lost a lot of damage compared to live, just so we can make sure it's intentional (as it is for many AE abilities). If you think you won't use some core spell just because it doesn't hit or heal for enough yet, then it's fine to bring that up, but you can also assume that the numbers just aren't quite right on it yet. Of course this also means that you may feel underpowered (or rarely overpowered, though players almost always feel underpowered) compared to someone else. This does not mean you're doomed in Cataclysm or that you need to SCREAM REAL LOUD to make sure the developers don't overlook it. Numbers are much easier to adjust once we're happy with the basic mechanics.

We've gotten a ton of great feedback already, and I want to personally thank you for that. We make changes every day that are the direct result of the feedback we receive, and that certainly includes this forum, the live forums, and many of the great websites out there were players discuss World of Warcraft design.

While right now, I PvP more than I PvE, I have been both a Hard Core Raider and PvPer. I quit raiding after I kill 25 Lich King Normal. I saw nothing more to push for since there were no server firsts and instead turned my attention to PvP. After Reviewing the "31 Point" Talent Tree's, I have found them to be very dis-tasteful. The Arms Race part I completely understand, but blizzard doesn't want "Mandatory Talents"? They want to eliminate "Boring Talents"? They also said:

Likewise, we don't assume tanks need to pick up every single dps talent in order to....

Yet after reviewing the trees for a few classes, I really only see 1 Path per tree, which correct me if I'm wrong is considered mandatory. Whether it be PvP or PvE I see only one path that will give you the "best" spec for your situation. And in reality Isn't this how it will always be. Wouldn't you place talent points in a different talent if it offered you a [insert number here] DPS increase in PvE. Or Spec a different Tree or way if it gave you a max survivability and damage/cc increase? In reality what are they really trying to accomplish.

Lets take Mages for instance. As of right now, Frost Mage is the dominating Mage in arena. Am I right? Now you may see an Arcane Mage from time to time, and almost if never see a Fire Mage. Why is this? Well simple. It gives mages the most out of their class. I highly doubt this will change in Cataclysm. Maybe Fire Mage will dominate but, nevertheless There will be a dominating Spec. The ONLY way I could see there being a wide variety of Specs for a class is if a certain Spec went well with a certain team make up. But its highly unlikely in my opinion. I won't say its impossible seeing as for Hunters that is almost the case. (only difference is, Surv doesn't go better with an class make up. When it comes down to it. Surv and Marks comes down to preference or what does more DMG. BM goes well with some comps better than the other 2)

We aren't designing PvP vs. PvE trees. Ultimately, we consider a talent specialization to be a stylistic choice. However, given the challenges of nailing both PvP and PvE balance, as a consolation prize it's nice when at least there are no dead trees. If Frost and Arms weren't raiding juggernauts, at least they did have a place in the game in Lich King. But Cataclysm represents an opportunity to try again, so we hope to see Arms and Frost raiding, and Fury and Fire in PvP.

Well I must say, as a hunter, while all 3 trees like they could offer some PvP, BM doesn't look most appetizing for pvp, Survival looks fun, but not as good as Marks. Marks almost looks like a Pure PvP tree if you ask me. Yes, I do see some very nice talents in Marks that would be great for PvE, don't get me wrong. But of all the trees. It has mostly PvP talents. Do you really think you need to daze a target in PvE? Resistance is Futile and Posthaste also seem slightly usable... and I really do mean slightly, when it comes to PvE. The heal you get in marks to. Not entirely useful in PvE. Can be but much more usable in a PvP situation when your healer is Locked out or CC'd. Whether blizzard meant to or not. They have done what they claim not to want to do in my opinion. I personally found nothing boring in the talents that increased my Crit. I like to see the big crits. Maybe its different for other people, but When I get a 17k Killshot crit on a priest or 10k on a warrior. I find it funny and amusing.

We aren't overhauling every single class. We are changing paladins quite a bit, and the resource systems for hunters and warlocks and Balance druids have changed. I get the sense some of you are waiting for that magical build in which half of your talents have been scrapped in favor of new ones, and in many cases, those changes just aren't coming. That's not to say we're done with any tree.

Would appear that way to me for a few classes. Every spec is a cookie cutter spec, so.... I guess the ones that did wait around for that got what the wanted or something close to it. I see plenty of old talents gone, and new one emerging. Old talents have been changed and buffed or nerfed in favor of the tree they have chosen to play with. Its going to be very hard to mess up your spec in cataclysm. Granted I am sure I will see my fair share of "Awesome" specs. But regardless for the most part, I am willing to bet most people will figure out the cookie cutter spec.



One thing I do understand, and believe it is important that everyone else understands is whether it be this expansion or the next. Eventually this was coming. They can't keep adding on and on to the trees. They would get too out of control. Same goes with abilities. Eventually, there are going to be to many to be able to use/ worth using. I can't say I have played the beta. I Hope I will be give this oppertunity to experience blizzards plans first hand and make a valid judgement then. Until then, this is just from reading, researching, and pure opinion.

Please don't take this post as a QQ. It is merely my observations. I have no reason to QQ yet seeing as I haven't played a finished or released version. I also don't see our QQing will fix things. Players need to learn to adapt. In some rare cases like 3.0 when Pallys destroyed, I think its obvious blizzard will notice this and take care of the issue. Anyone's own comments are welcome and I don't mind constructive criticism or feedback. I do realize everyone see's things different.


P.S. Blizzard! Thanks for giving hunters back Piercing Shot!

[Execution]

There or some signature moves, which of course for frost mages would be there pet or there freezing, that simply domiate In PvP/PvE.
If Blizzard was to take away any of these moves, then It wouldnt be or feel very much like a frost mage now would It?
There are some specs that are just made for PvE or PvP. And for Blizz, Its not easy to change this.

[Noverias]

But blizzard doesn't want this. They want to see all specs as viable specs in pvp and pve. This just wont happen.

[Macgaiver]

Agreed, If you want to make some classes a little more blaanced? work on taking away tanking PvP and moreo n Fire mages, Demo Locks, Sub Rogues, Frost DKs, and Fury warriors. OH and enhancement shams.

[Lythox]

Thats what you get, when you only make "fun" talents, and no "boring" talents that give small dmg increases etc. Only 1 path that gives you the best spec because else you miss out on that "fun" talent and the difference is gonna be notable. Hoping Blizzard reads your post, exactly my thoughts.

Also, I'm hoping they will increase the size of trees a bit again and give more freedom on hybrid. I like to have more choices to make.. though I also would like more simplicity because right now arena is such a mess because of all these thousands of different abilities..

[Macgaiver]

Thats what you get, when you only make "fun" talents, and no "boring" talents that give small dmg increases etc. Only 1 path that gives you the best spec because else you miss out on that "fun" talent and the difference is gonna be notable. Hoping Blizzard reads your post, exactly my thoughts.

Also, I'm hoping they will increase the size of trees a bit again and give more freedom on hybrid. I like to have more choices to make.. though I also would like more simplicity because right now arena is such a mess because of all these thousands of different abilities..

I do agree, as a DK I play a damn piano. i could stand to drop some CD's or maybe make the mless attractive than sticking to my normal "Rotation" or priority system on any given target.

[Noverias]

With the new set up... there will be no more Hybrid specs. Another problem if u ask me.

[VoltaireWrites]

Agreed, If you want to make some classes a little more blaanced? work on taking away tanking PvP and moreo n Fire mages, Demo Locks, Sub Rogues, Frost DKs, and Fury warriors. OH and enhancement shams.

Yeah man, those Demo Locks need work, a little underpowered(sarcasm). Everything else I agree with.

[Macgaiver]

Yeah man, those Demo Locks need work, a little underpowered(sarcasm). Everything else I agree with.

They are OP in 1v1 and BG', sure. But in arenas they dont put out enough pressure and the fights are extremely long only blowing meta when they are going for the kill, thats if they put enough pressure to even drop a resto shams mana.I really hope fury gets buffed big in PvP. I would love to see non TG warrs do exceptionally well in pvp, but they aren't because blizz isnt going to make the talent to more damage, they are going to give them an unreal amount of haste and a damage boost to special abilities. maybe with a 5 or 10% damage boost overall too

[NPEC]

Agreed, If you want to make some classes a little more blaanced? work on taking away tanking PvP and moreo n Fire mages, Demo Locks, Sub Rogues, Frost DKs, and Fury warriors. OH and enhancement shams.

Man why take away pvp tanking? I know that nowadays tanks in pvp are overpowered, still i never undertod why, its just a need to balance those specs. I play, since vanilla, with a prot warrior and is the only way i like to play on pvp do you really want to take that from me?

[escobar]

People should be happy if one of their specs is viable in pvp maybe fro 2 for healing classes because we need those bur honestly balancing 10-14 specs would be better in the long run than 30. And you CAN pvp in any spec its just certain ones work better in certain comps and at high end. Comp doesnt even start mattering until 1800+. In bg's and such you can play a 2h shaman fury warrior or demo lock and do just fine. Honestly i would prefer a pve and pvp tree for each class