CS over DS?

[Croack]

Hello, I have seen on many forums saying that if u have low crit and haste it might be better if u go CS before DS,even if i'm not really low crit/haste I did some tests on the dummy and for me it was like 200 dps increase but i'm thinking when i'm raid buffed is still good to do CS before DS? My armory here: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...ight&cn=Croack

[Badpaladin]

Okay, for starters it was not a 200 DPS increase. Unless you've got a multitude of parsed tests that each lasted at least the length of a boss fight, I'm going to call bullshit. However! CS > DS is approximately 50 DPS better than DS > CS if you have less than 100ms lag and the fight is fairly long. Here's why:

Obviously one would think, "well shit! 2pc t10 is random, so favor the RNG!". I'm here to say that RNG is a load of horse shit. Yes, it is random. No, it's not as random as you think. Elitist Jerks has determined that over the course of a fight, the effective cooldown of Divine Storm is around 6 seconds. That means, on average, your DS will be on cooldown for 6 seconds in between casts over the course of a fight.

Now, before you jump the gun on "random is random", I'd suggest taking a statistical analysis class. You can expect a randomly generated probability to normalize over time, period. If anybody disagrees with this then they should probably re-take high school statistics, because that's one of the first things that's taught. Now, feel free to re-do the homework I've done but I have found that parses on the longer, single-target fights in the game do in fact have their 2pct10 proc normalized over the course of said fight. RNG is either a huge hit or a huge miss over a short period, which is why it is favored so much -- but longer fights cannot say the same.

Now, if you were to cast CS and CS only over any long period of time, you'll find that it does slightly more damage that if you casted DS and DS only over any long period of time. And this is what our FCFS is based upon: not damage-per-cast, but highest-DPS. CS is a higher DPS ability than DS over time. It's about 50 DPS higher, but that is higher nonetheless. One must note however, if you are suffering upwards of 150ms lag, DS > CS will always win out because you are dealing with a significant amount of latency and damage-per-cast always wins in those situations. So to cap:

CS > DS is better if you have very low lag and you're on a fairly long, single target fight. DS > CS if these are not the conditions. Don't, however, try to play the "RNG can swing in my favor!" because it has always shown that observed statistics trump RNG. I'm sure that statement has left some people crying, but it's realistic. If you want RNG then try this one on for size:

You technically have just as high a chance of getting a DS proc every single melee swing as you do not getting a single one. These are not compounding statistics, so do you find that likely? Or do you think it's more likely that this would normalize over time?

[Janicia]

Your name is misleading.

[Requital]

Your name is misleading.

He is pretty bad!

[Kisko]

Obviously one would think, "well shit! 2pc t10 is random, so favor the RNG!". I'm here to say that RNG is a load of horse shit. Yes, it is random. No, it's not as random as you think. Elitist Jerks has determined that over the course of a fight, the effective cooldown of Divine Storm is around 6 seconds. That means, on average, your DS will be on cooldown for 6 seconds in between casts over the course of a fight.

Is that average 6sec for one fight, or for like, 100 fights?
Because I'm pretty sure that sometimes you can have as low as 4s eCD on DS and I've seen logs like that.
Yesterday, in a pug I had 5.0s eCD and did 16656 eDPS, that was on a pretty long 3:53 fight. So, doesn't look like 4 minutes is enough to average it to 6 sec.

Chance of 2-piece proc is 40%, but in particular fight where you swinged 100 times (~4min), you may have 25 procs, you may have 55 procs. It happens. Prioritizing DS > CS, you just making sure to utilize tier bonus to it's fullest, isn't?

[Nillo]

Prioritizing DS > CS, you just making sure to utilize tier bonus to it's fullest, isn't?

The problem with DS over CS is that you may end up having all abilities on cd => I use CS first if only 1 ability will come off cd within the next 4.5 seconds or the Swing timer is still more than 1.5 seconds away.

[Swampmoose]

Elitist Jerks has determined that over the course of a fight, the effective cooldown of Divine Storm is around 6 seconds.

And because of the fact that it is decreased to around 6 seconds, EJ has DS > CS in t10 gear.

From page 1 - "DS - DS only pulls ahead of CS with 2pcT10 equipped, as its' effective cooldown drops to 6 seconds, and it hits much harder than CS does."

Also, as gear goes form 264 to 277, the DPS increase from choosing DS > CS increases as gear gets better, closer to 200 than 50.

[Deleted]

pretty long explanation on when to use CS over DS

the thing is, if you don't use up your DS immediately, there is a chance are that you are missing out on another proc.

assume that you do 1000 swings. 40%, or 400 of those swings, will proc a swing. assuming you have a 3 second swing timer (other swing timers also work, but needlessly complicate things), if it procs at swing 5, and you don't use it immediately, it could happen that swing 6 procs it as well, but you would not know it during the fight, because the Divine Storm! buff does not appear on screen. if you then delay your DS with 1.5 seconds, it might just be that divine storm is used RIGHT AFTER swing 6, so you have missed out on a proc.

[Requital]

You are indeed bad.
The 6 second average will occur AFTER you used DS.
Thus is you use it asap it will be refreshed asap. That is the whole math behind it.

If it refreshes after 6 seconds there is no reason to wait 7 to 8 seconds every time. In a 4 minute fight that will be around 45-60 seconds lost. According to your own math that could have been 10 more DS. So yeah, go redo that highschool now.

It has nothing to do with RNG.

You should learn more about your own classes abilities before trying to play the smart guy most of your posts are wrong.

---------- Post added 2010-07-31 at 06:48 PM ----------

Is that average 6sec for one fight, or for like, 100 fights?
Because I'm pretty sure that sometimes you can have as low as 4s eCD on DS and I've seen logs like that.
Yesterday, in a pug I had 5.0s eCD and did 16656 eDPS, that was on a pretty long 3:53 fight. So, doesn't look like 4 minutes is enough to average it to 6 sec.

Chance of 2-piece proc is 40%, but in particular fight where you swinged 100 times (~4min), you may have 25 procs, you may have 55 procs. It happens. Prioritizing DS > CS, you just making sure to utilize tier bonus to it's fullest, isn't?

I'm still not sure why you play a Paladin bad bad bad

---------- Post added 2010-07-31 at 06:53 PM ----------

And because of the fact that it is decreased to around 6 seconds, EJ has DS > CS in t10 gear.

From page 1 - "DS - DS only pulls ahead of CS with 2pcT10 equipped, as its' effective cooldown drops to 6 seconds, and it hits much harder than CS does."

Also, as gear goes form 264 to 277, the DPS increase from choosing DS > CS increases as gear gets better, closer to 200 than 50.

You are reading a post that was last updated when December? January? Right it hasn't been updated CS > DS if you are low latency will net overall higher DPS unfortunately there are very few Paladins with low enough ping to take advantage of it Bluedeep did for a while and his numbers are proof.

03/23/10 - patch v3.3.3 (no changes)
01/30/09 - minor updates (t10)
12/18/09 - crit cap info, t10 updates, fcfs updates
12/08/09 - patch v3.3
10/01/09 - updates 'n bugs
09/22/09 - patch v3.2.2
08/26/09 - major bugs (t9), sov
08/20/09 - priority system update
08/11/09 - minor bug updates
08/06/09 - bugs!
08/05/09 - minor corrections
08/04/09 - patch v3.2

[Deleted]

let me try to debunk 3 posters in one post without any reasoning of my own.

requital, if Kangodo, Kisko and Swampmoose are so wrong, then why don't you explain the truth? why do you insist on giving anecdotal evidence from 1 paladin (the best paladin in the world, maybe, but still) without giving any real reasoning on why this is wrong? delaying a DS for a certain time might mean that you miss a DS! proc. no way of knowing this when it happens until it's too late, but it's best to prepare for it.

[Swampmoose]

requital, if Kangodo, Kisko and Swampmoose are so wrong, then why don't you explain the truth? why do you insist on giving anecdotal evidence from 1 paladin (the best paladin in the world, maybe, but still) without giving any real reasoning on why this is wrong? delaying a DS for a certain time might mean that you miss a DS! proc. no way of knowing this when it happens until it's too late, but it's best to prepare for it.

When he actually plays instead of having AHK play for him, I'll consider him "the best."

I downloaded rawr since I haven't had it on this comp in a while, still showing DS > CS by over 100 dps. I'm still seeing posts that go either way in EJ, some favoring CS > DS, some favoring DS > CS. Multiple reasons outside of pure dps as well (mana issues, DS range, etc).

/shrug

[Kisko]

I'm still not sure why you play a Paladin bad bad bad

Says the ret who can't even align last wings with DV proc or speed pot. /facepalm



Requital. You fail.

[Rlyskilled]

I heard that Exodus has a hard time with Festergut so they need to maximize their DPS on every fight C/D?

[Kisko]

Yeah right, let's all slack together so we can spend more time at ICC doing 7-month old content.

[Nillo]

Yeah right, let's all slack together so we can spend more time at ICC doing 7-month old content.

As if anyone would notice the 0.5 seconds you saved by aligning the stars.

[Rlyskilled]

I think a lot of people would agree with me that after content is on farm status the only thing left to do is try to rank on WMO or WOL. Without Shadowmourne that's been a bit of a task for Requital although I have seen him still ranked pretty high over the masses of mediocre rets with Skillmourne so I wouldn't say he's doing too bad for himself. Festergut on the other hand is one of those hurr durr tank and spank fights where skill has no part in how hard you hit. God knows our rotation isn't rocket surgery and if you've bumbled your way through ICC long enough to get Shadowmourne you can do competitive DPS on Festergut. You strafe from side to side and hit the boss. Why line up cooldowns and take the fight super serious when there's very little chance of ranking?

Unless you want to post a parse of your Lady Deathwhisper DPS against his where I believe he's in the top 5 for rets in the US then I suggest you keep your petty words to yourself.

[Requital]

Says the ret who can't even align last wings with DV proc or speed pot. /facepalm



Requital. You fail.

When you provide any parse that shows you can out DPS me I might care what you say but since can't well you don't have any of those. You digging through my parse to show I'm not aligning DC/AW and this matters how? Somehow the aligning of a DC/AW is relevant to your lack of knowledge about this class.

I'm sure we all went over this one other time and you were wrong then and you are wrong now and the only Ret you provided a parse of still got out dps'd so sure you dig all you want it doesn't matter.

Without your Skillmourne your just another lolret I have been out dpsing since BC. Hey but you keep telling yourself your good I'm sure it builds your self confidence. It's easier to align those when you take between 4-8 mins for each boss.

[Badpaladin]

You are indeed bad.
The 6 second average will occur AFTER you used DS.
Thus is you use it asap it will be refreshed asap. That is the whole math behind it.

If it refreshes after 6 seconds there is no reason to wait 7 to 8 seconds every time. In a 4 minute fight that will be around 45-60 seconds lost. According to your own math that could have been 10 more DS. So yeah, go redo that highschool now.

It has nothing to do with RNG.

Erhm, what? 6 seconds is the average time DS is off cooldown when measured over the course of the fight. I'm not saying it's off cooldown 6 seconds every time, I'm saying that's the statistical average. Here: Iiris' top Festergut Parse. 2:47 long fight, 18.4k. Most would agree that RNG would take hold with these settings, right?...right?

Is that average 6sec for one fight, or for like, 100 fights?
Because I'm pretty sure that sometimes you can have as low as 4s eCD on DS and I've seen logs like that.
Yesterday, in a pug I had 5.0s eCD and did 16656 eDPS, that was on a pretty long 3:53 fight. So, doesn't look like 4 minutes is enough to average it to 6 sec.

Chance of 2-piece proc is 40%, but in particular fight where you swinged 100 times (~4min), you may have 25 procs, you may have 55 procs. It happens. Prioritizing DS > CS, you just making sure to utilize tier bonus to it's fullest, isn't?

62,000 damage to little oozes, much of it was Divine Storm. This of course would lower your eCD by quite a bit making it innacurate unless you account for multiple targets. But there is truth! My Saurfang parse:

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...6656#damageout

2.71s eCD!

In your festergut parse:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/o...?s=4841&e=5094

6.17 second eCD.

Requital. You fail.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/o...?s=4841&e=5094

TWO AW casts in a 253 second fight?! TWO?! Sorry, but you shouldn't be calling somebody a failure for not optimizing something if you don't do it either.

And because of the fact that it is decreased to around 6 seconds, EJ has DS > CS in t10 gear.

From page 1 - "DS - DS only pulls ahead of CS with 2pcT10 equipped, as its' effective cooldown drops to 6 seconds, and it hits much harder than CS does."

It's a little out dated. I know Bdeep used CS > DS along with a few other rets there when they were in full 277 gear, as Requital has stated. Don't care if you hate ahk, he was the most consistent and frequent high ranking ret in the world until Shadowmourne came into play. In the words of Gearbreaker, YOU CANNOT DENY THOSE NUMBERS!!!! ...As I stated in my original post though, the difference is so minimal that you won't even notice it. RNG's blanket is much more noticeable.

requital, if Kangodo, Kisko and Swampmoose are so wrong, then why don't you explain the truth? why do you insist on giving anecdotal evidence from 1 paladin (the best paladin in the world, maybe, but still) without giving any real reasoning on why this is wrong? delaying a DS for a certain time might mean that you miss a DS! proc. no way of knowing this when it happens until it's too late, but it's best to prepare for it.

I'll go. That's praying to the RNG gods. You're hoping for good RNG, which normalizes over time. In fact, not that much time! RNG is RNG, that I will not deny. Ever. But really, are you going to rest your case on that? It normalizes over time, and parse after parse after parse after parse you look up can show you this.

[Requital]

requital, if Kangodo, Kisko and Swampmoose are so wrong, then why don't you explain the truth? why do you insist on giving anecdotal evidence from 1 paladin (the best paladin in the world, maybe, but still) without giving any real reasoning on why this is wrong? delaying a DS for a certain time might mean that you miss a DS! proc. no way of knowing this when it happens until it's too late, but it's best to prepare for it.

I was busy agreeing with and backing up BadPaladin, It's not my fault Kisko is stuck on some I know it all phase. But would it make you feel better instead of agreeing with Bad I just typed out the same thing?

[Badpaladin]

Can't beleive I didn't respond to this:

Your name is misleading.

No, it's not. Do you even know how many fights I start without a seal up, or have it run out mid-fight?