[Suggestion] SV hunter

[Raqubor]

Hello all,

Long post incoming!
TL|DR at bottom.

I was looking through the talent trees, and both BM and MM have a certain feel to them. They really bring out that Handler/Archer feeling.
I think SV doesn't have this.
I imagine SV as the trap/explosives master. He is the one who goes fishing with dynamite, and who sets a huge ass trap that blows mammoths to pieces.
So in that regard, i have a few suggestions that would change the FEEL of the spec. (and in some way the game play, but not much)

Black Arrow:
It shares CD with trap spells. I think the first thing they should do, is remove that restriction, and tone down the damage of Immolation Trap and Black Arrow a little. This way, we can use our stuff, AND traps, as the specialists we are.

New 31 pointer:
This might sound drastic, but i would switch Black Arrow with Trap Launcher.
Yes this means Trap Launcher should be SVs 31 point talent, that also increases trap effectiveness by 20%.
What would happen to BA? It would be baseline, in place of TL. At level 48 as i heard now on Beta.
Why would BM and MM be able to handle traps as SV? What would they use Trap Launcher for? Of course for Immolation and Explosive traps. All other traps can be managed without the need to shoot them. So this way all specs get a ranged dot, other than Serpent.
Related change of T.N.T: Since now both BA and Immo can keep ticking on the target, i would nerf this talent to a two pointer: 4/8% (read below why).

Wyvern sting re-imagined:
First off, i would rename this to Heavy Shot.
Description: You fire a Heavy Shot that incapacitates the target for 10 seconds (like repentance) and splashes Napalm over the target. The next fire based attack (explosive shot, or a fire trap, or even a Mage's fireball) will ignite the napalm and burn the target for (more than Wyvern sting now, because it's easier to get out of this, plus it has a shorter duration).

Noxoius Stings re-imagined:
I would rename this talent to Chemistry.
Description: Increases the damage done by your napalm and cobra shot by 5/10/15%, and increases your damage done to targets affected by Serpent Sting by 1/2/3%.
Since the new mastery of SV is elemental damage, and since BM hasn't any talents that specialized on Cobra Shot, i would ninja cobra shot as the replacement for steady shot in the use of SV rotation. I'm not sure about the damage increase in the chemistry talent for cobra shot, i would bring it up only to the level of steady shot, maybe for it to do 10% less damage, as it does nature damage so no armor affects it, and we increase it's damage passively with our mastery.

Hunting Party modified: We all know that the Windfury effect will be incorporated in to this talent, but i would like to further emphasize the importance to use only Cobra shot, so i would make the effect trigger off Cobra Shot only.

Improved Hunters Mark
SV has a lot of fun talents, some improve defense the others help situational offense. I think the tree looks quite all right, except the first row, where there is no choice. You have to take both talents to move on.
As i see it, improved hunters mark was removed. I liked that talent, because it gave meaning to marking up targets.
I think it fits well in SV, as it's kind of tracking related. This talent will be very simple, as a first row talent:
Improved Hunters Mark: Increases your hit chance on targets you marked by 1/2/3%.
Since now we have a new 3 pointer there are two talents i would decrease to two pointers:
Entrapment: 2/3 second and T.N.T: 4/8% (read above why).

TL|DR version:
Black Arrow: baseline at level X, off the trap CD, but with decreased damage.
Trap Launcher: the new 31 pointer, that also increases trap effectiveness by 20%.
Heavy Shot: (in place of Wyvern Sting) Incapacitates target for 10 seconds and splashes Napalm over the target. The next fire damage on the target will ignite the napalm that will burn the target over time for X (more than now Wyvern) damage.
Chemistry: (in place of Noxious Stings) Increases the damage done by your Napalm and Cobra Shot by 5/10/15%, and increases damage done to targets affected by Serpent Sting by 1/2/3%.
Hunting Party: Increases your agility by 2%, and your Cobra Shots have a 50% chance to trigger Efficiency, that increases melee and ranged attack speed by 20% and grants Replenishment.
Improved Hunters Mark: New first row talent: Increases chance to hit your marked target by 1/2/3%.
Entrapment: Now 2 pointer, 2/3 seconds.
T.N.T: Now 2 ponter, 4/8%.

I hope you like my suggestions, please share your thoughts!
I would also like someone, who likes my suggestions and is still subscribing, to post this on the official forum, because my account is iced till Cataclysm! Thank you!

[glo]

Taking black arrow off the trap cooldown would be silly. It would enable people to chain proc LnL as much as they please. They could remove the ability black arrow has to proc LnL, but then that was the whole point of them adding the shot in the first place...

As for Improved hunter's mark, they said from the get-go that they were slowly removing all "increases such and such by such and such %%" type talents.

Not even sure if there is already a cobra shot increasing talent, but if there is, I'm sure they'll have to add one for steady to even out the specs.

Other than that, i think the rest of the suggestions are cool.

[Herecius]

Taking black arrow off the trap cooldown would be silly. It would enable people to chain proc LnL as much as they please. They could remove the ability black arrow has to proc LnL, but then that was the whole point of them adding the shot in the first place...

As for Improved hunter's mark, they said from the get-go that they were slowly removing all "increases such and such by such and such %%" type talents.

Not even sure if there is already a cobra shot increasing talent, but if there is, I'm sure they'll have to add one for steady to even out the specs.

Other than that, i think the rest of the suggestions are cool.

Except that LnL had an internal CD and cannot be chained.

[glo]

Except that LnL had an internal CD and cannot be chained.

I meant it more along the lines of waiting for a black arrow to proc LnL, then watching the cooldown hit, dropping a trap immediately after along with a black arrow again to greatly increase the chances to proc LnL quickly.

-Although- I just took a look at the talent calculator again and it seems black arrow isn't even going to proc LnL in the first place. (obviously subject to change)

/shrug

[Voodoou]

you can already always proc it by either black arrow or trap...

I personally prefer Surv over MM but love BM the best and the thought of only one spec getting launch trap REALLY pisses me off and its the worst suggestion I have ever heard. I think you are missing the feel of Surv. MM to me is the one that doesn't have a feel. Surv is about elemental damage.. fire and stuff.. hmmm does it still have that chance to proc shadow damage like they were talking about or rather was it ever added or have they talked more about it?

[Raqubor]

you can already always proc it by either black arrow or trap...

I personally prefer Surv over MM but love BM the best and the thought of only one spec getting launch trap REALLY pisses me off and its the worst suggestion I have ever heard. I think you are missing the feel of Surv. MM to me is the one that doesn't have a feel. Surv is about elemental damage.. fire and stuff.. hmmm does it still have that chance to proc shadow damage like they were talking about or rather was it ever added or have they talked more about it?

I think i actually do have the feel of surv, and Black Arrow does not fit (imho).
The whole point of Surv is the trapping. You didn't have trap launcher so far, why would you ever miss it if they only gave it to Surv? You would still get Black Arrow as a different spec. It would make Survs 31 pointer a big hit. Not like BA, i mean you can't even shoot it if you use a trap... A heavily restricted 31 pointer is not the way to go. while MM has 3 different uses for it's end talent.

Plus this way every spec has a uniqe role to playing hunter. The way SV is, it's just MM 2. The strange not so exciting, but annoying type of 2.

[glo]

you can already always proc it by either black arrow or trap...

I meant it would be OP if you could shoot black arrow and trap launch immolation trap at the same time and have them both have a chance at proccing LnL.

[Raqubor]

I meant it would be OP if you could shoot black arrow and trap launch immolation trap at the same time and have them both have a chance at proccing LnL.

I don't know if you read, but in my suggestion the procrate of T.N.T is nurfed down to 8%. Which is vey low, and around the same as 12% for only one of them. If you think this is too high, it can be taken down to 6%. I know that proccing Lock and Load often is too powerful, that's why i wrote it there, but still this is minor balance concern. What do you think about the whole picture? Would you like a more explosives/traps centered SV?

[Thereign]

Why make IHM give you a chance to hit your target, when I thought they were making 3% hit one of the passives to each tree? Not sure of the blue post, but I know it's there.

[Voodoou]

The Surv feel ISN'T traps... Blizz has said this. It is the elemental DAMAGE which last I checked... black arrow is shadow damage

[Raqubor]

The Surv feel ISN'T traps... Blizz has said this. It is the elemental DAMAGE which last I checked... black arrow is shadow damage

Where did they say that? Can't it be traps AND elemental damage?

My main concern about BA is that why shoot that if i have trap launcher and can shoot Immo Trap? At least i don't hit my other traps to a cooldown. It's just too similar and boring.
It would be a totally different thing if it was off the trap CD.

I don't really understand your problem. I think your only problem is that i want only SV to have TL. I respect your concern, but i think you are not seeing the bigger picture. Im just trying to make SV a little more uniqe than MM2. Having TL as BM and MM is a bit overkill. Both trees have massive CC abilities, or counter CC, while SV only has Wyvern shot (other than what the other specs have). I just think that SV needs this to have a uniqe feel. You would still have BA, all other specs would also have BA, but i guess you read through my suggestion.

Altough i don't think we will find an agreement, since you want SV to be MM2, and i want it to be a trapper/explosives master, with elemental damage.

I wish some other people would pop in here and share their thoughts! Yes this means you, reader!

[Bankster]

Where did they say that? Can't it be traps AND elemental damage?

My main concern about BA is that why shoot that if i have trap launcher and can shoot Immo Trap? At least i don't hit my other traps to a cooldown. It's just too similar and boring.
It would be a totally different thing if it was off the trap CD.

I don't really understand your problem. I think your only problem is that i want only SV to have TL. I respect your concern, but i think you are not seeing the bigger picture. Im just trying to make SV a little more uniqe than MM2. Having TL as BM and MM is a bit overkill. Both trees have massive CC abilities, or counter CC, while SV only has Wyvern shot (other than what the other specs have). I just think that SV needs this to have a uniqe feel. You would still have BA, all other specs would also have BA, but i guess you read through my suggestion.

Altough i don't think we will find an agreement, since you want SV to be MM2, and i want it to be a trapper/explosives master, with elemental damage.

I wish some other people would pop in here and share their thoughts! Yes this means you, reader!

Ok first off why shoot imo trap when BA does more dmg than imo. It also buffs your dmg by 6% which is a good size self buff. You say you want to shoot your traps off but you dont understand how the tree is set up right now. BA is one of the best talents SV gets. It's a +dmg booster and it does more dmg than imo on top of that it's a instant range attack than dosent force you to select the trap you want then load it into the trap launcher then hit it and move the icon to the location you want to shoot it. As for SV being MM2 you have lost your mind. SV is no where near MM on the beta. Being one of the lucky few to have been giving a invite to it i have been testing the specs out and they are no where near the same. Now for the CC part. What CC? BM gets a 3 second minor stun and MM gets a 3 second silence while SV gets a 30second sleep or 10 in pvp. I understand you want TL to be the 31 point tallent but as it is it's a worthless spell that takes way to long to set up and is only good at the start of a group pull with CC. Cause the way it stands it's worthless in any mid fight for trying to get extra dmg and it's to much of a pain in pvp.

[deadman80]

My ideas/comments/etc regarding the OP:

* Black Arrow: Currently on beta, BA no longer provides a damage buff.. It's basically just a boring shadow damage DOT... -_-;; I'm sure that Blizzard will do something with it eventually, but right now it's kinda pointless. I am in favor of moving it out of the 31pt spot, but not making it baseline. Perhaps it could be swapped with the improved Wyvern Sting I outline below.

* Trap Launcher: Absolutely should NOT be spec restricted. Since traps still have arming times and you have to manually target where you are launching your traps, the ability is quite balanced enough to allow all specs to have access to it.

* Wyvern Sting: The CD should be lowered to 30sec (possibly via other talents) to match the duration, and it should have the ability to overwrite the DOT with the sleep effect. The fact that currently on live servers, once the 30sec of CC is up, we are then unable to re-CC the target due to the DOT is why most people don't really like the ability. Creating the opportunity for chain CC in PVE would make the ability worth considering using, especially with the renewed interest on making CC a better strategy than AOEing packs down. What you suggested as it's replacement seems like a nerf to me TBH, but my version would make it viable.

* Noxious Stings: Provided Wyvern Sting was fixed to be like mentioned above, then a better version of this talent would be: Increases duration of the sleep effect and damage over time effect of Wyvern Sting by 3/6/10 seconds and increases your damage against targets affected by your Serpent Sting by 1%/2%/3%.

* Hunting Party: You got this one mostly right, but unless Blizz does a 180 on the role of Cobra Shot being intended to be BM's signature shot, equal to Steady Shot for SV, and inferior to Steady Shot for MM, it's rather foolish to restrict the ability to only Cobra Shot... I suggest that it triggers off of auto-shot + steady shot + cobra shot to insure that we don't end up getting locked into using a potentially inferior shot in the chance that SS > CS and maximizing uptime which makes it easier to account for in the development process for Blizzard.

* Improved Hunter's Mark: I'm pretty sure we are getting a minor +hit bonus baked into the class with the new passive abilities so this would be rather redundant. The only way I see this happening would be to tack it onto Improved Tracking, which would make the tooltip cover half the screen ^^;;

* Entrapment: Should be 2pt talent, providing a 2/4 sec immobilization and the bloody glitch that requires you to be within 10yds needs to be fixed so that it works regardless of the hunter's position.

A few of my own ideas for other changes:
* NEW - Improved Camouflage, 1pt, tier3+: 100% chance to trigger LnL when you use Explosive Shot, Serpent Sting or Black Arrow and your evasion is increased by 20% while you under the effects of Camouflage.

* NEW - Double Tap, 2pt, tier5+: When your pet gets a critical hit with Claw/Bite/Smack, then your next Explosive Shot, Arcane Shot, or Serpent Sting fired within 3sec applies the Crippling Wound debuff to the target which reduces it's accuracy and evasion by 2%/4% for 10sec.

* CHANGE - Trap Mastery: Provides AOE immunity to your snakes from Snake Trap in addition to increasing the number of snakes created.. Possibly reduce the number of extra snakes to account for the vastly increased reliability of the effect.

And that's it from the top of my head for now XD

[Raqubor]

* Trap Launcher: Absolutely should NOT be spec restricted. Since traps still have arming times and you have to manually target where you are launching your traps, the ability is quite balanced enough to allow all specs to have access to it.

That's exactly what i like about it. You have to time it right, and position it fast. If you use key binds, you have no problem doing that. It would make SV more complex to play, which is my goal.

* Wyvern Sting: The CD should be lowered to 30sec (possibly via other talents) to match the duration, and it should have the ability to overwrite the DOT with the sleep effect. The fact that currently on live servers, once the 30sec of CC is up, we are then unable to re-CC the target due to the DOT is why most people don't really like the ability. Creating the opportunity for chain CC in PVE would make the ability worth considering using, especially with the renewed interest on making CC a better strategy than AOEing packs down. What you suggested as it's replacement seems like a nerf to me TBH, but my version would make it viable.

So this will be the new 31 pointer? Well, i don't know... actually if you have the Entrapment talent taken, we can cc people very well. Not lock them down, but keep them from moving. With trap launcher this will be even easier. You have two different traps that if triggered keep enemies from moving.

* Hunting Party: You got this one mostly right, but unless Blizz does a 180 on the role of Cobra Shot being intended to be BM's signature shot, equal to Steady Shot for SV, and inferior to Steady Shot for MM, it's rather foolish to restrict the ability to only Cobra Shot... I suggest that it triggers off of auto-shot + steady shot + cobra shot to insure that we don't end up getting locked into using a potentially inferior shot in the chance that SS > CS and maximizing uptime which makes it easier to account for in the development process for Blizzard.

You will be shooting Steadies and Cobras all the time between Focus shots, so i don't think adding auto shot is necessary.

* NEW - Improved Camouflage, 1pt, tier3+: 100% chance to trigger LnL when you use Explosive Shot, Serpent Sting or Black Arrow and your evasion is increased by 20% while you under the effects of Camouflage.

Now this is OP. We are not rogues. Nuking down targets from Camo...

Your other ideas are interesting, but we would need to take out some other talents, because it's already too easy to spend more than 31 points in SV (if you want all pvp utility).

[deadman80]

Keep in mind that Freezing Arrow is gone. BM/MM will still need to be able to at least toss a TL+Freezing Trap out when CC is needed in Cata raids. I don't think there is any hope for TL to become a SV-only ability, nor do I see any reason to limit our CC viability to only one spec.

I tacked on auto-shot to Hunting Party just because I expect Blizz to cut corners where they can afford to, and it would be a lot easier to plan for Hunting Party to be up 100% of the time during raids rather than have to think about cases where a SV is present but HP might not be. Just Cobra+Steady should be plenty however.

My "Improved Camouflage" idea does not change how Camouflage works. Camo still only affects your first shot fired while under it's effects, but you get a free LnL proc if you use ExS, SrpS, or BA. The evasion only applies while you are under the Camo effect (and therefore not attacking,) and is mainly intended for possibly avoiding getting knocked out of Camo by AOEs... Once you fire a shot, Camo still drops, so I don't see how we could be compared to Rogues on that basis, unless you are complaining about Camouflage itself XD

[Raqubor]

Keep in mind that Freezing Arrow is gone. BM/MM will still need to be able to at least toss a TL+Freezing Trap out when CC is needed in Cata raids. I don't think there is any hope for TL to become a SV-only ability, nor do I see any reason to limit our CC viability to only one spec.

Or they can do it the old way. Put down the trap and pull the target with a shot. In TBC hunters did that, there was no problem with it.

y "Improved Camouflage" idea does not change how Camouflage works. Camo still only affects your first shot fired while under it's effects, but you get a free LnL proc if you use ExS, SrpS, or BA. The evasion only applies while you are under the Camo effect (and therefore not attacking,) and is mainly intended for possibly avoiding getting knocked out of Camo by AOEs... Once you fire a shot, Camo still drops, so I don't see how we could be compared to Rogues on that basis, unless you are complaining about Camouflage itself XD

No-no i like Camo, what i don't like is firing an explosive shot with +20% damage, than two arcane shots, and an extra explosive in 4 globals, where the enemy can only react at around after the 2nd arcane shot.

I think shooting away an enemies half life before having to worry about retaliation and focus is just too much.

[Thereign]

Why are you hating on our burst damage? Currently I can kill a relatively geared pvp player in 4 GCDs. Now you say getting someone to half health then is too much? Blizzard is already trying to reduce our burst (one of the few good things left about this class) and you go and complain more? At 50% health it will just take 2 or 3 heals, and the target is back up to full again. Using your model, we will have no use in arena.

[Voodoou]

Thereign =P I don't get you, sometimes you are the most helpful person and other times a complete jerk =P Are you bipolar?

To answer the above question posed to me... Blizzard has said it MANY times.. and if you aren't keeping track of the hunter blue posts regarding cata that's not my job to do it for you. I retain info I don't save the location to prove myself to others who are too lazy to read the MMO news everyday.

[deadman80]

Arcane Shot damage is getting nerfed in comparison to Explosive to account for the lowered focus cost IIRC. SV will lose access to Aimed Shot as well since it is slated to be a MM exclusive.. Right now, it really doesn't take more than 7sec to take a target from 100% > 0% for a good PVP player due to massive burst potential, but in Cata most of our burst potential appears to have been removed. Getting a guaranteed LnL proc at the start of the fight creates the opportunity for some of that to be restored without creating situations where the target goes from live > dead before they can hit a button to respond, but does add something unique to SV that screams "fun" and "special".

Don't forget that Camouflage can not be used in combat, so this would only benefit the opening attack. MM is getting TWO "execute" phases which cover nearly 1/2 of the fight when put together, so why shouldn't SV get a little bonus for their first attack? ^^

Regarding traps, yes, everyone can still lay down traps like normal. The problem is that the encounters coming are not going to be designed around that style of CC and we will still need some way to CC at range in order to actually be useful. It's a lot easier on the devs if they can assume that every form of CC is usable at range vs having one class that has to go into melee range to CC if they don't spec a certain way.

[Thereign]

Heh, I am definitely bipolar. Nah, I just get all uppity when mildly irritated >.<