Frost Badge Holy Libram

[shesta]

In my new guild, the two active holy paladins use the frost emblem libram: The libram of blinding light. HS on cooldown for spellpower. Personally I use the libram of renewal. One of those paladins is a FoL spammer and one a HL spammer, but both use this libram. I can think of no reason why.

Is there ANY decent theorycraft as to why to use this libram? They claim that, and I quote from our forums:

"They [paladins in top guilds] can spam HL cause of trinkets...it gives uber mana regen. And well it's not so easy to get them (at least I never seen Solace dropping).
Libram of Renewal is good for HL spammers - but there is limit of how long You can spam it :<
Pvp libram is yes, for FoL spammers - also FoL spammers should use more SP gems.
Frosties libram is hybrid one - for pallies who combine HL and FoL in fight."

Personally I use a lot more HL than the other two paladins and my gear is worse, and I have shitty trinkets, and still don't go oom unless it's a very challenging heroic (and people are screwing up) so I'm not seeing the validity in this. However I'm willing to chance that they know something I don't, since they apparently read up on their class, and ask the very knowledgable player base here.

Thoughts?

[Elovan]

They are wrong. The frost Libram sucks ass. The ilvl 200 one is BiS and the triumph one is second, get both because the triumph libram is good for valithria.

Edit: To be more specific, unless you use Holy Shock on cd, the buff from the frost libram falls off very easily. That combined with the fact that it's a sp buff, and our Holy Lights already hit like a truck, make it a very poor libram.

[Deleted]

EoF libram is an attempt at a throughput libram, but when you need throughput, you don't use HS, therefore, it's of almost no use. The argument that they don't use a libram to improve the sustainability of HL spam on the basis that they have issues with the sustainability of HL spam makes no sense at all. Libram of Renewal is the best raiding libram for holy paladins.

[Tatsu]

They are arguing basically that because you dont have good trinkets you should gimp yourself even more. Don't listen to them, the ilvl 200 libram is best.

[Deleted]

They are arguing basically that because you dont have good trinkets you should gimp yourself even more. Don't listen to them, the ilvl 200 trinket is best.

You mean libram ;-)

The Libram Of Renewal, PvP libram and the triumph badge one are all in my inventory, and I switch depending on fights, the raid setup, 10M vs 25m etc. I consider Libram of Renewal the best of them all, as it is the most useful to me, in most fights I spam HL. (My guild has 10/12 ICC25 HM down, so we seem do do ok.)
There is a certain synergy between the frost badge libram and t10 4piece bonus. However I do not believe using them together can be effective to a point it trumps HL spam.

People who equip the frost badge libram do it most probably for one reason. Gearscore. It's the best example of "I gimp myself because I want a high GS" in the game.
I bet the paladins from OPs guild also do not use Aura Mastery and Divine Sacrifice, going for more crit from the ret tree, and effectively hurting the raid even more.

[shesta]

Actually they don't use the Sacrifice build that I do. I was told I might have to change to use a crit build when I joined the guild and there was a bit of grumbling that my spec (the standard DG one) was a "PvPish spec". Some linking seemed to help stop those questions, but the other paladins still use the crit specs.

[Deleted]

Oky im going to be straight with you here.
The 2 paladin in you guild sufer from a very common and grave diseas. Its called takeing items without looking at what they do based on GS.
There are several things you need to know about this : 1) there is no cure atm
2) Over 45% of wow activ population suffer from the diseas and the number is ghrowing so its nothing to be ashamed about plaing with those ppl
3) Do not by any means try to sugest them and item with lower GS is better than what they have , they can do anything , inventing theorycrafting about it included ,to prove that you are wrong.

If you really belive that the libram might be better than here are some facts :

All the holydins in Paragon , FTH and Ensidia are useing ethir the ilvl 200 one or the ilvl245 one. ( only one of them use the ilvl 245 libram and stated he uses it for some fights only)

The ilvl 245 libram gives 24? ( I think ) less sp than the ilvl 264 one and its refreshed everytime you cast holy light

On fihts like LK 25 hm with soul reaper on tank you cant waste 1.5 sec for a 7k heal every 10 sec t keep the proc up

If you dont have mana problem the ilvl 200 libram is still the way to go on fights like LK sindra DB or putri hm you might fell the need to skip a DP , for exempel i never DP in the beserker stage on surfang if im not 10% mana or so since your heal become well..shit

That Libram has a use tho it was higher GS and it might help you get into some pugs , so I sugest every pala to have it as backup ( also with 2 ICC sp trinket as backup ) incase they need to pug.

---------- Post added 2010-08-02 at 02:14 PM ----------

Actually they don't use the Sacrifice build that I do. I was told I might have to change to use a crit build when I joined the guild and there was a bit of grumbling that my spec (the standard DG one) was a "PvPish spec". Some linking seemed to help stop those questions, but the other paladins still use the crit specs.

Also this only proves that there diseas is in a advance stage aka stats whoreing where they want useless stats such as cirt and tend to skip talents like improve DI that might help the raid in critical situations and that are used to absorb dmg .

[Deleted]

Actually they don't use the Sacrifice build that I do. I was told I might have to change to use a crit build when I joined the guild and there was a bit of grumbling that my spec (the standard DG one) was a "PvPish spec". Some linking seemed to help stop those questions, but the other paladins still use the crit specs.

Show them the LK 25 HM video by Paragon. You see Aura Mastery popup all the time in chat, even their Rets use it. Then in the room phase you can see the Divine Sacrifice announcement in chat. If the cool world first guys do it, perhaps it is time to switch spec for the guys in your guild. Or for you to find a better guild, you had the right idea from the start.

[shesta]

I should note there, I don't believe in doing things "because Paragon do it" or whoever other top guild. I believe in doing things when there is good evidence in theorycrafting and user experience that it's the best way to go about things. :P

[Elessa]

Libram of Renewal > all other librams.

[Dorn]

There is a certain synergy between the frost badge libram and t10 4piece bonus. However I do not believe using them together can be effective to a point it trumps HL spam.

The problem with the 4pc (and why no one in their right mind goes for it) is that the cast time reduction for holy light that you get from it, actually makes your holy light cast time longer than if you had haste on the extra 2 items you'd use to get the 4pc...
On topic- the emblem of frost libram is absolute crap, UNTIL the 4.0 patch where we get all our cata abilities (where HS is used to build up holy power)- when that patch hits, I expect it to become BiS for everything save maybe LK hm. But until that time, yeah, its trash.

[Pendulus]

Actually they don't use the Sacrifice build that I do. I was told I might have to change to use a crit build when I joined the guild and there was a bit of grumbling that my spec (the standard DG one) was a "PvPish spec". Some linking seemed to help stop those questions, but the other paladins still use the crit specs.

If your guild doesn't understand the raid utility of a 20% shield wall every two minutes then you need a new guild. Any Paladin arguing that spilling into Ret is better than spilling into Prot needs to stop playing and go sit in the moron corner.

[omglazor]

If your guild doesn't understand the raid utility of a 20% shield wall every two minutes then you need a new guild. Any Paladin arguing that spilling into Ret is better than spilling into Prot needs to stop playing and go sit in the moron corner.

Everyone in this thread seems to point to Libram of Renewal + Holy/Prot, however being primarily ICC-10 with ICC-25 PUGs, Relentless Libram + Glyph of Light + a holy/ret build works amazing for me. Consider also the 30% ICC buff and FoL healing goes through the roof while allowing you to spam HL when needed.

[shesta]

Yes, but I was asking purely about HL healing paladins (I said Int gemmed in my initial post), FoL healing is a total other kettle of fish.

[omglazor]

Yes, but I was asking purely about HL healing paladins (I said Int gemmed in my initial post), FoL healing is a total other kettle of fish.

Pardon, was just voicing my opinion on the topic of "going into ret means you are a moron".

On topic, the frost libram seems far too situational to actually be very useful - the stacks could easily drop in 15 seconds of intense spam >_>

[Saethwyr]

Libram of Renewal is BiS for HL based pallys

i don't think anyone else has mentioned this so i will
Renewal also has the best synergy with pally talents, Illumination works off the base mana cost of spells so you are getting more than 30% back when you crit with Holy Light.
To put it in percentages Renewal reduces the mana cost of HL by about 5% whereas the other librams increase the amount healed by -i don't know but guessing a fairly small amount-
the frost emblem one would only really have use on very high movement fights where you will be casting HS on CD

NB this is for HL based pallys only, i don't know for FoL based ones as i'm not one and dont know any

[Aarnor]

http://www.wowhead.com/item=50460 = e-peen/ GS whoring but otherwise useless considering how much u have to cast an incredibly inefficient heal
http://www.wowhead.com/item=47662 = completely over-gear something (some people like to use this in 5 mans) and I use it on the dreamwalker fight
http://www.wowhead.com/item=40705 = effectively regen and chances are the mana it saves will give u more hps than the SP ones whether it be by making you use divine plea less or flash of light less

As far as flash of light vs. holy light goes people can pull off flash of light builds now because of the huge ICC buff and because you really always could (although I don't believe sucessfully in most heroic content) but the issue it it's sub-optimal and with it being fairly easy to get your character that much closer to being at it's most valuable just by using a holy light build with the holy/prot spec and proper itemization/gemming. I know basically what I said has been said before but I'm doing it again anyway just to emphasize how important this information is.

[shesta]

Well, my guild members are never going to agree on this one, regardless of the overwhelming evidence. I linked the thread and they do not agree with this.

Our armories: (removed by request of my guild)

[Aarnor]

Convince one of your guild's officers that they should make changes to their specs, gems, and gear and have the officer put pressure on them if they want to ignore the truth from you and those who have posted in this thread.

[shesta]

Convince one of your guild's officers that they should make changes to their specs, gems, and gear and have the officer put pressure on them if they want to ignore the truth from you and those who have posted in this thread.

My guild doesn't work like that, and I'm the newbie, so no, that's not gonna happen