New Focus Dump

[Barani]

Since Arcane shot is being nerfed into oblivion I've run the numbers and it turns out that with the changes to Kill Command talent decreasing the CD so that it doesn't have one now. And it actually is a better Focus Dump now and makes the talent "Resistance is Futile" look attractive.

Talent Tree: http://www.wowtal.com/#k=Bstt-u4N.9sm.hunter
Note: the Imp Kill Command is not yet implemented

Place-holder AP = 10,000


ARCANE SHOT

[.17 x 10,000 + 603] = New Arcane Shot Formula = ~2303 Damage

Take 2303 and divide it by the cost of Arcane Shot which is 22 thanks to the Efficiency Talent and we arrive at 104.68 DPF (Damage per Focus)


KILL COMMAND

[.53 x 10,000 + 1149.98] = Kill Command Formula = ~6450 (Rounded up from 6449.98)

Take 6450 and divide by 40 and the final damage is 161.25 DPF

[Thereign]

Interesting. Given as the builds aren't final yet, I would expect this to change, but the numbers prove the usefulness for the time being. However, I still feel like RiF is a waste of talent points.

[deadman80]

Interesting. Given as the builds aren't final yet, I would expect this to change, but the numbers prove the usefulness for the time being. However, I still feel like RiF is a waste of talent points.

RiF needs to have a higher proc chance in order to be attractive to a spec that doesn't rely on pet damage for a considerable portion of their dps. Maybe 50% would be enough, but 8% is just plain silly and a waste of talent points.

[Dahakas]

the problem with kill command is that sometimes it just doesn't work, or is subject to the hunters melee hit/expertise%. This complete changes the DPF. Not to mention with arcane shot nerfed into the ground, steady/cobra can out produce arcane then, making the entire system not work.

Easy fix on this was to keep arcane where it was, however make it cost the appropriate amount of focus before nerfing it. For testing it was 'supposed' to cost 22 focus. however it ended up costing 9? Of course that made it seem like it needed to be nerfed. How about this blizz, make stuff work properly so it can be tested before nerfing it.

I foresee this changing in the next build.

[Barani]

RiF needs to have a higher proc chance in order to be attractive to a spec that doesn't rely on pet damage for a considerable portion of their dps. Maybe 50% would be enough, but 8% is just plain silly and a waste of talent points.

Well the road block at Tier 4 requires you to go with some talents that don't seem very useful and so RiF seems to be the most attractive out of the 4 talent choices.

[Thereign]

I don't know what you are talking about, I haven't had much trouble making an attractive spec for marks build in beta.

[Djinra]

You have Rapid Recuperation but not Rapid Killing? w/e Floats your boat but I would personally switch 2/2 from RiF into Rapid Killing. I don't find 8% reliable, + through the history of raids in WoW, fights with adds are fairly common.

[Bob002]

You have Rapid Recuperation but not Rapid Killing? w/e Floats your boat but I would personally switch 2/2 from RiF into Rapid Killing. I don't find 8% reliable, + through the history of raids in WoW, fights with adds are fairly common.

Rapid Killing is a talent that I'm on the edge about right now. If you don't take it, then Rapid Recuperation is half wasted. However, right now we don't know how the fights are going to go, either (I'm thinking raid, not 5mans). On top of that, does RK proc if you just happen to be there when the mob dies or do you need the killing blow?

If it procs just from mob death, then it has potential to be hugely useful in 5 mans as well.

[Vaporizer]

All talents that say "After killing an opponent that yields experience or honor" only proc when you get the killing blow.

[deadman80]

All talents that say "After killing an opponent that yields experience or honor" only proc when you get the killing blow.

I really wish they would change this mechanic so that it was based on contributing to the death of the target rather than killing blow only. Maybe require a certain percentage of damage done to prevent players from tagging a bunch of adds to guarantee mass benefits.

[Bob002]

All talents that say "After killing an opponent that yields experience or honor" only proc when you get the killing blow.

That's what I figured.

[deadman80]

the problem with kill command is that sometimes it just doesn't work, or is subject to the hunters melee hit/expertise%. This complete changes the DPF. Not to mention with arcane shot nerfed into the ground, steady/cobra can out produce arcane then, making the entire system not work.

Easy fix on this was to keep arcane where it was, however make it cost the appropriate amount of focus before nerfing it. For testing it was 'supposed' to cost 22 focus. however it ended up costing 9? Of course that made it seem like it needed to be nerfed. How about this blizz, make stuff work properly so it can be tested before nerfing it.

I foresee this changing in the next build.

When exactly would KC not work? :-/ If your pet is attacking the target, and you are hit capped, then KC will hit the target... If you are not hit capped, then Arcane Shot would have just as much of a chance to miss as KC, so that argument doesn't work.


Slightly Off Topic: The highest priority for fixing things to enable accurate testing should be to complete at least the first pass on our pets. I don't even really care at this point about balancing pet racials, just get a working base in place (since I hear that pet dps is not even normalized between two pets of the same family,) and a first look at the pet talent tree(s). Pet dps will probably account for 50% of BM dps, and 10%-15% for MM/SV so their contribution is important to all 3 specs, and now both MM/SV have talents that play off of pets, so this is not just an issue for BM. For the first pass, all I'm hoping for is normalized melee and Claw/Smack/Bite damage, and maybe a feel for how the new talents will work even if they are NYI while they get the kinks out of the baseline. I really have a feeling that the broken state of our pets is the underlying reason for hunters to feel wrong in beta.

[Dahakas]

When exactly would KC not work? :-/ If your pet is attacking the target, and you are hit capped, then KC will hit the target... If you are not hit capped, then Arcane Shot would have just as much of a chance to miss as KC, so that argument doesn't work.

On beta when using KC there is times that KC will do nothing, ..yet cost the focus, however the ability itself never went off, I am not the only one to mention this and it has been brought up off and on. And no, even if you are hit capped that doesn't mean you are hit capped for melee, which is what the pet's +hit is based off of, ..not to mention we have no expertise, so parry/dodge are subject for loss of DPS/waste of focus. So unless you are going to stack hit beyond 8% and acquire expertise then the DPF is not accurate for KC.

And another thing, duh everyone knows all of this is subject to change that is why it is beta. Not to mention hunters in general has had no serious work done on it yet. ATM Blizz is centered on Warriors / Paladin.

[Bob002]

On beta when using KC there is times that KC will do nothing, ..yet cost the focus, however the ability itself never went off, I am not the only one to mention this and it has been brought up off and on. And no, even if you are hit capped that doesn't mean you are hit capped for melee, which is what the pet's +hit is based off of, ..not to mention we have no expertise, so parry/dodge are subject for loss of DPS/waste of focus. So unless you are going to stack hit beyond 8% and acquire expertise then the DPF is not accurate for KC.

Thought that the FAQ says if you're capped at 8%, then your pet is capped. Unless they are changing that for Cata.

[Kangg]

8% is the hit cap for specials and be it melee or ranged, and seems how KC is a special it should be capped at 8%

[Millhi]

Thought that the FAQ says if you're capped at 8%, then your pet is capped. Unless they are changing that for Cata.

yes this is true if you have 8% hit without hit increasing talents then your pet is hitcapped,expertise capped,... however if you have 7% hit and take imp focused aim these days your pet will only have 7% hit so won't be hitcapped, exoertise capped,... due to the fact focused aim doesn't count in as hit for pet (a bug in it wich i don't know if it's fixed alrdy) this is for wotlk. in cataclysm you don't have hit talents so your ept will be capped if you are capped also.

[Firebyrd]

yes this is true if you have 8% hit without hit increasing talents then your pet is hitcapped,expertise capped,... however if you have 7% hit and take imp focused aim these days your pet will only have 7% hit so won't be hitcapped, exoertise capped,... due to the fact focused aim doesn't count in as hit for pet (a bug in it wich i don't know if it's fixed alrdy) this is for wotlk. in cataclysm you don't have hit talents so your ept will be capped if you are capped also.

This bug was listed as being fixed several patches ago.

[Dahakas]

they are not expertise capped regardless of hit cap, 2 different mechanics. miss as opposed to parry/dodge. And focused aim on live does not give your pet hit. The pet's hit is only based on the hunters gear.

Fundamentally the pet hit issue is something in general that hurts BM hunters scaling. As the further you go in to BM mastery the higher your pet is the percentage of your damage, ..to the point that the pets general lack of hit for white damage keeps the BM hunters' DPS from scaling on par with MM/Sv with later gear.

---------- Post added 2010-08-08 at 11:41 AM ----------

From the basis of this thread it still doesn't justify the DPF for KC until bugs/issues with the ability is ironed out, ...and imo damage greatly increased.

[deadman80]

they are not expertise capped regardless of hit cap, 2 different mechanics. miss as opposed to parry/dodge. And focused aim on live does not give your pet hit. The pet's hit is only based on the hunters gear.

Fundamentally the pet hit issue is something in general that hurts BM hunters scaling. As the further you go in to BM mastery the higher your pet is the percentage of your damage, ..to the point that the pets general lack of hit for white damage keeps the BM hunters' DPS from scaling on par with MM/Sv with later gear.

---------- Post added 2010-08-08 at 11:41 AM ----------

From the basis of this thread it still doesn't justify the DPF for KC until bugs/issues with the ability is ironed out, ...and imo damage greatly increased.

It sounds like there is just yet another bug in our pets and pet dependent abilities in the beta. On live, as long as you have 8.00%+ hit rating, then your pet is hit capped AND expertise capped. This is the reason why the proc on Wolverine Bite was changed from "when the target dodges" to "after your pet makes a critical attack".
This is not new info, and has been this way for a looooong time. ^^;; You also "corrected" everyone else about Focused Aim by repeating what they were all saying: FA does not contribute to pet hit/expertise, which we all know already and already should be accounting for. FA is also removed from beta, so it's a non-issue for the topic at hand since we will all need to reach hit cap through gearing anyway.

From everything that I've heard, our pets are nearly non-functional in beta and it's impossible to judge how well pets will perform right now. I am eagerly awaiting news that at least the first pass is at least on the way so we can all form more reasonable opinions on how well the class as a whole is going to work out.