So all this promised "choice"..

[Prentice]

In what conditions can HoF be a huge dps increase? Example please. In that example of yours have you used HoF again right after it came off cooldown? I mean, honestly, have you ever, in a raid environment mind you, used HoF or Salvation right off the bat when their cooldown ended? I can understand now, almost 2 years after expansion hit the shelves, that you may need to chain Salvation in certain encounters, but HoF, come on..

Yes, I have. There was this one boss in TBC named Lady Vashj(you might have heard of her). Multiple paladins were required to keep the MT moving freely away from the poison puddles.

I can definitely understand your point. Comparing how many times I would be inclined to do one or the other, I will cast Hand of Salvation more than I am willing to blow all of my Holy Power on someone else. We clearly don't know how things will turn out, but that's my take.

[Aùssa02]

How about E4E?
On all fights that involve ANY kind of aoe damage - that is going to be a dps increase. I don't really see the choice here unless I am reading E4E wrong it should work on aoe damage too?

[Ascal]

I can understand now, almost 2 years after expansion hit the shelves, that you may need to chain Salvation in certain encounters, but HoF, come on..

Freya HM
It's both survivability and DPS for melee.
In any situation in which you can use HoF to reach the thing that you're supposed to smack quicker it's a DPS increase.
And we don't know what bosses we might face come cataclysm.

Again, you have two talent points to spent as you please, so yes, the ret tree has "choice".

[Bootyhunta]

I hope they scrap this entire talent design and revert back to the old talent trees. Honestly unless i passively get all the old talents or they bring back path of the titans and implement pvp shit that way im not interested in cata anymore. I'd drop 40 bucks to change my blue bar orange.

[Ascal]

I hope they scrap this entire talent design and revert back to the old talent trees. Honestly unless i passively get all the old talents or they bring back path of the titans and implement pvp shit that way im not interested in cata anymore. I'd drop 40 bucks to change my blue bar orange.

My god, you really have no idea what you are talking about.

[Prentice]

How about E4E?
On all fights that involve ANY kind of aoe damage - that is going to be a dps increase. I don't really see the choice here unless I am reading E4E wrong it should work on aoe damage too?

It is entirely possible that E4E will require the damage taken to be direct damage to qualify for the damage reflection.

Freya HM

Damn it. I forgot that one. For shame!!

[Nurvus]

That is not true.

http://www.wowtal.com/#k=7BMXBHMW.9sm.paladin
Just put one random point to get ret's last talent and spend the rest as you like.

And one more thing people should learn to understand, if a talent gives a little bit damage it might be worth skipping it for better utility or 'fun' talents.
The problem is that people are picking all the dmg increasing talents, sacrifising everything usefull for just that bit of damage and then demanding to have free talents.

How do you think that pures handle that?

The goal from Blizzard is -meant to be- making you take all the mandatory talents and THEN be left with a good deal of talent points to spec into -truly optional and fun- talents.

They are totally failing at that.

To be true to what they said they wanted done, you'd spend around ~27 "Must Have Primary Tree Points" points plus ~4 "Truly Optional Primary Tree Points", around ~6 "Must Have Off Tree Points" and ~4 "Truly Optional Off Tree Points".
---
That said, the OP is dead on the spot - you don't have the choice Blizzard said you -would- have.
Not even remotely.

And then you reply to the original poster by derailing this into a pure vs hybrid when it's not even the point.

Utility/Fun/Etc talents in a DPS tree are stuff that does "not" affect your DPS. AT ALL.
Pursuit of Justice affects your dps, even tho it doesn't do it directly.
Acts of Sacrifice affects your dps, even though it does not do it directly.

Only Repentance, Communion and Selfless Healer are really optional for PvE, but Selfless Healer is clearly a no-no for PvE comparing to the rest.

Plus, don't forget Blizzard is designing a talent for that "hole".
You think it'll be an optional talent? I don't.

[rabbimojo]

In what conditions can HoF be a huge dps increase? Example please. In that example of yours have you used HoF again right after it came off cooldown? I mean, honestly, have you ever, in a raid environment mind you, used HoF or Salvation right off the bat when their cooldown ended? I can understand now, almost 2 years after expansion hit the shelves, that you may need to chain Salvation in certain encounters, but HoF, come on..

Whether Salv ends up being that useful depends on where they take the threat game. Because Blizz is trying to adjust scaling of tank threat to fit that of DPS, they are going to be more able to nail specific "threat is hard" situations. There's been talk of threat decaying over a fight, though I haven't read whether that was scrapped. (If anyone knows a post saying yes/no, PM me? ;x thanks)

Whether Freedom is that useful is harder to say. I think that aspect is going to be more PvP oriented, but it really depends on encounters. There have been a few snare-heavy fights out there, and they could very very easily add more. Probably not going to be a uniformly useful side of the talent, though.

[Will]

I hope they scrap this entire talent design and revert back to the old talent trees. Honestly unless i passively get all the old talents or they bring back path of the titans and implement pvp shit that way im not interested in cata anymore. I'd drop 40 bucks to change my blue bar orange.

would you care to tell us why you don't like this new design, rather than just rant about it? It sounds to me like you're scared of change.

Oh and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

---------- Post added 2010-08-09 at 08:32 PM ----------

Its kinda annoying how ret has to spend points into holy and prot again in cata.

Blizzard stated that any talent build that's basically all the points in one tree is a failed design on their part. Face it, every class has to spend points in another spec, so nothing makes you different/special.

[rabbimojo]

The goal from Blizzard is -meant to be- making you take all the mandatory talents and THEN be left with a good deal of talent points to spec into -truly optional and fun- talents.

They are totally failing at that.
...

Manufacturing solid choices in each tree takes a lot of revision. It isn't something they're going to launch into when they're still making large-grained changes to the spec. If they're not really trying to do it right now, I think it's a little silly to say they're "totally failing at it".

How about E4E?
On all fights that involve ANY kind of aoe damage - that is going to be a dps increase. I don't really see the choice here unless I am reading E4E wrong it should work on aoe damage too?

It isn't 100% clear how it will be implemented. As mentioned above by someone else, it may only be direct damage that triggers it. The damage may not be recorded as the paladin's, either, like spell reflect doesn't show for a warrior. In addition, the total amount of damage dealt may be so small that it isn't worth giving up other utility.

DPSers are typically pretty rabid about any and all DPS increases, but a miniscule quantitative change can be outweighed by a significant qualitative change. Knowing when and whether utility outweighs extremely minor DPS gains could be a good way to tell who actually knows how to play and who does not. There are a lot of things in the game that have a significant impact on group success which too many people ignore, but again: that's part of the difference between the top and the bottom.

[Badpaladin]

lolwut?? My HoS is getting called for constantly in the current content. While tank threat in its current state is acceptable, it can easily be outdone by DPS threat. Warriors and ferals, specifically, are the most common targets of my Salv. HoS is hardly useless right now.

I've never had to salv somebody in a meaningful raid, even shadowmourne warriors(and yes their DPS was retardedly high). For starters it's a waste of a GCD that I can't afford when competing, and if the tank is good it's not necessary.

[Mahon]

QQ more. You have 3 extra talents!

You know how many extra talents resto druids have right now? negative 5! We have to skip 4% +healing to HoTs, and 9% reduction in cost of a lot of our spells...Both pretty important for a resto druid. Then again we are forced to put 1 talent in a "cough fun" talent before we can get to the third tier...we get to choose between a talent that does nothing for resto, or reduces all spell damage taken by 2%.

I really want to have sympathy for you. I really do.

[Prentice]

Blizzard stated that any talent build that's basically all the points in one tree is a failed design on their part. Face it, every class has to spend points in another spec, so nothing makes you different/special.

But when you see other class's specs, they tend to have a 0 amongst the x/x/x. Ret pallys have been spending mandatory points in all three trees for quite a while now.

I honestly could care less about choice or fun. As long as I can snag every reasonable damage increasing talent I'm fine with that.

---------- Post added 2010-08-09 at 07:43 PM ----------

I've never had to salv somebody in a meaningful raid, even shadowmourne warriors(and yes their DPS was retardedly high). For starters it's a waste of a GCD that I can't afford when competing, and if the tank is good it's not necessary.

You're warriors or ferals don't get TotT'd??

[Underskilled]

I don't know about you guys, but I took the points out of Selfless healer and got repentance and our interrupt, since Blizzard said CC would be apart of Cataclysm, and akaik it's the only interrupt in the game that's free of any cost, which will help.

[Vasti]

Where did it go?

Yes yes, its only beta, but atm the specs for paladins are more set in stone than ever. There are zero choices to make.

Atm a ret palla at least can choose if he want aura mastery or Divine sacrifice, or shorter HoP CD and such. In Cata a ret basically picks his tree clean apart from Repentance, Selfless healer, eye for an eye and acts of sacrifice. From other trees judgements and seals of the pure and arbiter of light is mandatory leaving you with a grand 3 points to spend on utility.

You'll prolly want repentance and selfess healer spend on that (seems best to me), so where is the decisions?

Dunno how it is with other classes, but with so few talents left it seems to me that Blizzard has managed to do the opposite of what they said. But then i guess we dont have to argue about talent trees no longer..

I was about to make my own thread about this one, but then I saw yours. I comepeltely agree that their is less choice in cata for at least retri paladins. Only 2 points that aren't mandatory.

And one more thing people should learn to understand, if a talent gives a little bit damage it might be worth skipping it for better utility or 'fun' talents.
The problem is that people are picking all the dmg increasing talents, sacrifising everything usefull for just that bit of damage and then demanding to have free talents.

How do you think that pures handle that?

May I direct you to ---> http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/25969...the-fury-tree/
For the lazy I will quote the sentence I am referring to:
"We want you to be able to get all of the damage talents you reasonably can, and be making decisions over the utility talents."
They don't want us to choose between damage vs utility, or damage vs damage, they want us to choose utility vs utility!
With: "all of the damage talents you reasonably can" I assume they mean that we shouldnt be able to get reckoning or some other deep prot/holy dps talent. But the current holy/prot dps talents that are at the top of their trees are very reasonable to take. So we should get them and then have enough talent points left to choose between utility talents.

So far this is my retri pve build: http://www.wowtal.com/#k=7BMXBSR1.9sm.paladin
And I have 2 whole points to spare for utility :S Wooohoo thats alot of choice :S

VEry dissapointed. Hope they change it fast!

[rabbimojo]

I've never had to salv somebody in a meaningful raid, even shadowmourne warriors(and yes their DPS was retardedly high). For starters it's a waste of a GCD that I can't afford when competing, and if the tank is good it's not necessary.

Salv was a major DPS boost on Vezax and Hodir HM. Both gimmick fights, for sure, but almost every fight's some kind of gimmick fight.

But when you see other class's specs, they tend to have a 0 amongst the x/x/x. Ret pallys have been spending mandatory points in all three trees for quite a while now.

I honestly could care less about choice or fun. As long as I can snag every reasonable damage increasing talent I'm fine with that.

---------- Post added 2010-08-09 at 07:43 PM ----------



You're warriors or ferals don't get TotT'd??

I actually think it's nice to have useful talents in both subtrees. I think I'd rather the DPS-increasing ones were only in the 2nd tier, though, so you had to select between them rather than nab in both. That leaves the first tier open for utility, guaranteeing you get some. If the first 5 in either subtree can be DPS, then there's no choice again.

As for ToT targets, a lot of guilds, rogues just trade ToT. The relative DPS gain of giving to a fury/feral over a rogue is pretty miniscule, if it exists at all, and I think the rogues would frankly rather keep their own class numbers high. Additionally, rogue trading avoids potential threat issues / the need to macro the threat-cancel into ToT.

[Fichek]

There are a lot of things in the game that have a significant impact on group success which too many people ignore, but again: that's part of the difference between the top and the bottom.

That's the point. And considering the fact that developers themselves have stated that there will be more emphasis on healing and more stress on healers mana pools in coming expansion, shouldn't then offhealing by nonhealers and selfhealing take priority over a talent that's partially usable in 1 fight per expansion (going by given examples).
I guess we agree to disagree on that topic but what still irks me is their constant advertising of choice when there is none to make. We are actually here discussing which talent is actually less useless so we can put our last 2 points there, while the other 39 are already set in stone. And yet they say we will have more choices. Good rhetoric is good.
It used to be Divine Purpose, Vindication, Guardian Favor and Divine Sacrifice, Aura Mastery, all of which were by far more useful talents then Selfless Healer and Acts of Sacrifice yet somehow we didn't have choice then but we will in Cataclysm. I just don't buy that kind of bs, that's all.

[Badpaladin]

You're warriors or ferals don't get TotT'd??

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...dre&cn=Ashkore

Son of a bitch knows how to tank. I've always been blessed with amazing tanks though. In my last guild we had a great warrior tank and my ToGC guild had an even better one. I guess my point is, tell your tanks to stop being bad and threat harder. Even though we scale better with gear and that's artificially escalated with the buff, no good tank should still be pulled off unless they started with literally no threat on a fully debuffed mob that a DPS hit first.

And unless it's an absolute need for progression, I'm not going to waste a GCD and lessen a wol/wmo rank for somebody else.

[5648945621]

The new talent trees suck just as much for all classes. blizz wants us to be able to spec with our eyes closed.

[rabbimojo]

That's the point. And considering the fact that developers themselves have stated that there will be more emphasis on healing and more stress on healers mana pools in coming expansion, shouldn't then offhealing by nonhealers and selfhealing take priority over a talent that's partially usable in 1 fight per expansion (going by given examples).

Well, it might, it might not. Healing from non-healers is a known question mark, because it's often unclear (esp. in a mana-tight environment) from the DPS' perspective whether the healers are struggling or just being clever and conserving mana. As such, you may just end up overhealing.

I was just trying to point out situations where those buffs are in fact useful. I can probably think of more, but I'm not really trying to make some claim that AoS is this amazing talent for PvE.

I guess we agree to disagree on that topic but what still irks me is their constant advertising of choice when there is none to make. We are actually here discussing which talent is actually less useless so we can put our last 2 points there, while the other 39 are already set in stone. And yet they say we will have more choices. Good rhetoric is good.

They say we will have, not that the current beta build does have. I know "beta is beta" has gotten way overused, but in this case it's very true. There just hasn't been a whole lot of effort spent on trying to balance choices in the tree. There's still plenty of time to shave points here, shift talents there, etc. Expressing opinions on the current state is fine, but you step away from reasonable discourse when you start to prognosticate Dev failure from Dev design triage.

It used to be Divine Purpose, Vindication, Guardian Favor and Divine Sacrifice, Aura Mastery, all of which were by far more useful talents then Selfless Healer and Acts of Sacrifice yet somehow we didn't have choice then but we will in Cataclysm. I just don't buy that kind of bs, that's all.

Ret may have had choice, but the other 29 specs had almost none. It's possible Ret will end up with less choice than it used to have, sure. However, evidence is pretty strong (when viewed without bias) that trying to create choice in the Ret tree is so far not a top-priority thing, just as it isn't in many other trees. This isn't surprising, since they've just done one of the most massive spec reworks of the expac with Ret.

---------- Post added 2010-08-09 at 01:17 PM ----------

The new talent trees suck just as much for all classes. blizz wants us to be able to spec with our eyes closed.

Hyperbole is the best thing ever, among all things.

You may need your eyes open to spec on live, but you can shut your brain off.
I'm happy to trade empty-headed mouse button abuse for thoughtful consideration of utility.