[Priest] Mental Strength - 4.0 Discipline Discussion

[Hushkoon]

Wow that makes me laugh, if you really think thats TWO talents in the holy tree make up for all the nerfs to the disc tree.

Here, let me just repeat myself:

There is no point in screaming and kicking because you find the Disc tree not powerfull enough, if the Disc spec as a whole is where it should be at (not saying that I think it is, but who knows really?)

Regarding your definition of a spec, talent tree etc. I cannot but completely disagree: A spec is how you have chosen to place all of you talents, the spec is then defined by the dominant talent tree. I'm pretty sure you simply have misunderstood, read to much in between the lines, or simply taken the blue posts to literally. Besides, we all know that our dear blue posts aren't always 100% accurate; take for example the breakdown of how they think a typical ICC Disc priest's healing looks like, they listed Divine Aigis to 35%. But we all know that is not possible, just read the sticky about absorb mechanics that Harky made. (I guess Blue listed DA as 35% because most of the priest community simply don't know any better)

Btw since you CANT put points into holy UNLESS you are lvl 70+ and therefore you dont even have access to the talents you mention, your argument is simnply false and pointless......

And how does that have anything to do with anything? Whether you can reach some of the discussed talents before 70+ or not is hardly a point, seeing it will have no influence what so ever on the endgame.

[Deleted]

Well, currently I see the following problems in Disc (since I'm not in beta, these are theoretical problems):

1. If you want to bypass the Archangel-Talents, you have a problem in tier 6. You have to spent one point in a non-PvE-Talent to progress any further. To fix this Blizzard should add another talent to tier 6 or make 'Focused Will' more attractive for PvE (or add something to 'Reflective Shield' to make it more interesting for PvE). As it stands now, this talent is strictly PvP, something which Blizzard wanted to remove from any trees.

2. There is still the problem with the hit rating when going into 'Archangel'. To skill 'Twisted Faith' in the shadow tree costs 7 (!) points and only four of them are well spent (the two in Twisted Faith and two in Veiled Shadows). Nobody will do this. Because...

3. The talents to improve our non-Shield HPS are all located in the holy tree. It is a little bit better now because they reduced the points necessary for 'Improved Healing' and 'Inspiration' but still - didn't Blizzard tell us that such boring talents should be gone? As it stands now these talents are a MUST HAVE for all disc priests and the reason is that the disc tree alone doesn't have enough power in the HPS area. Or the other way round: Blizzard tells us to use other spells than PW:S more often (I agree to this!) but there are currently no new talents in the disc tree to support those other spells. To force this, Blizzard is going to nerf the shields, but all they give us in the disc tree to compensate is Archangel.

4. Cookie Cutter, you are still here? The goal of Blizzard was to remove 'Cookie Cutter' builds, but right now I don't see it. If 'Archangel' proves to be viable for the endgame, everybody will skill the Archangel-Cookie Cutter build, if not, everybody will skill the other Cookie Cutter build.

5. Archangel is most attractive to Shadow and more attractive to Holy (due to SoL). This gives me the feeling that the disc tree is once again reduced to the toolbox for these two other builds.

[Repo123]

I would have to agree with Beezle.

Blizz says they want us to have "fun" choices instead of spamming shield. They took care of the not spamming shield by nerfing it. Yet I fail to see the "fun" in casting smite if it's going to miss.

Even if it's deemed "fun" to miss with smite by skipping twisted faith, the improved healing and inspiration talents still leave disc at a considerable disadvantage in healing.

Archangel is not the answer. Triage based healing will require intelligent decisions, and I have no problem with that. My concern is that people will die because we will be too busy casting smite to maintain the buff. The mechanics are too clunky. How often will smite have to be cast to maintain the buff? Too many times.

[Samin]

4. Cookie Cutter, you are still here? The goal of Blizzard was to remove 'Cookie Cutter' builds

Source! Nobody from blizzard ever said anything like that.

[Hushkoon]

I'm pretty sure that Archangel is not meant to boost Disc in the healing department as a standard tool of your healing. As I recall it Blizz have stated it's there for those fights that you either outgear or where loads of healing just isn't needed; the other healing classes got talents which has the same kind of mechanic; resto druid = free instant Wraths, resto shamans = big mana return while casting Lightning Bolt and holy palas = Judgements + instant free Exorcism.

With that being said, I do agree with you on the fact that some of the talents seem boring and a lot of the talents in the Disc tree seem nerfed. I would like to see the old Rapture (but I don't think that will happen, seeing the resto druids Rivitalize got nerfed to only working on them self as well. My guess is that Blizz wants consistency when it comes to character resources), see Renewed Hope being changed to somthing actually interesting, see Divine Aegis being changed so it doesn't rely on crit (seeing that I find healing needs to be something that is consistant, therefore only having your DA up when you crit seem to me as a bad solution), it could simply be that when we heal someone they receive a DA equal to a percentage of the amount of healing they received.

Ps. Beezle, your first point about having problems in tier 6 and therefore you need to pick up a non-PvE talent is not true, you simply just have to dive down and slap 1 more point in Mental Agility.

[Deleted]

Source! Nobody from blizzard ever said anything like that.

E.g. Ghostcrawler here:
Related, if we do our jobs right, you are going to run out of dps talents (or healing talents if you're a healer, or mitigation talents if you're a tank). We don't want every talent to feel mandatory since you are prohibited from getting them all. We want you to have choices.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...27372&sid=2000

The shaman Q&A:
The model we're trying to use for all the classes is that you can't just soak up no-brainer talents in the first few tiers. Often there is a dps talent, and then a survival talent and then maybe an efficiency talent. You definitely get the first one, but you often need to get one of the others to progress down. This is what we mean about not being able to cherry pick just throughput-oriented talents and skipping everything else that is utility, etc. It's an evolving process though. I'm not sure I could point to a class yet and say "There. We nailed it."
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/26435...aman-comments/

Ghostcrawler again:
3) Because you earn passive bonuses just for spending points in the tree, those fun, niche or utility talents won't seem as expensive as they do today. We want to create a lot more choices where you are choosing utility vs. utility. We want to see far more "cookie cutter" build guides that say "Spend the last 5-10 points where you want."
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...geNo=1&sid=1#5

Enough or do you need more?

---------- Post added 2010-08-18 at 04:53 PM ----------

I'm pretty sure that Archangel is not meant to boost Disc in the healing department as a standard tool of your healing. As I recall it Blizz have stated it's there for those fights that you either outgear or where loads of healing just isn't needed; the other healing classes got talents which has the same kind of mechanic;

Ok, I agree to some extend. But really, do we need a talent for outgeared fights? Do you bring a healer to a fight where loads of healing just isn't needed?

If Blizzard is really serious about that, they should improve the damage dealing abilities of those hybrids (= healers which also deal damage) a lot more. There may be a niche for flexible hybrids which deal 90% of the damage of a DD and may provide 90% of the healing of a full-time healer. I don't see a niche for someone who brings 80% healing of another healer class and 10% damage of a standard damage dealer.

Ps. Beezle, your first point about having problems in tier 6 and therefore you need to pick up a non-PvE talent is not true, you simply just have to dive down and slap 1 more point in Mental Agility.

Verified it, and I think you are right. Looks like I did miss putting some points into 'Renewed Hope'.

[Neichus]

One fun little thing I wanted to inject here:

Now that they're retooled the way channeled and over-time spells work with Haste, you now get extra ticks of Penance with enough Haste. My friend copied her toon over in ~264 average gear and with Borrowed Time up she was able to get 5 Penance bolts rather than the usual 3. It was really neat to watch.

[Repo123]

More disappointment with the disc change and lack of disc changes.

[KresnikHellfire]

More disappointment with the disc change and lack of disc changes.

Most definetly. From a pvp perspective, holy is looking more and more wonderful every day. That doesn't necessarily mean it will work, but disc really seems to be taking a beating this expansion.

[KnickKnack]

I would have to agree with Beezle.

Blizz says they want us to have "fun" choices instead of spamming shield. They took care of the not spamming shield by nerfing it. Yet I fail to see the "fun" in casting smite if it's going to miss.

Well, I am not gonna have any fun when I don't get invited to any raids, since almost EVERY talent in the disc tree got nerfed that my HPS is going to be worse than it is now. Yes, I use more than PW:S in raids.

Holy is getting a crapload of new stuff. Not like I am complaining or anything, but this is just ridiculous.

Stop saying "Oh, Disc get Archangel and PW:B".

OK, first of all, I love PW:B, I agree, but that is not enough of cover all the nerfs.

And Archangel, I feel that the disc tree is being used to give extra candy to Holy and Shadow (since it is so high up the tree that the other trees will have access)

Honestly, Disc should get the 20% extra mana back. I know it is one of those "boring" talents, but the disc has been ridiculously trimmed down that it is on life support.

[Neichus]

When people start talking about how Disc has been nerfed in its HPS potential are you taking into account that it now receives +25% healing done as a passive tree bonus?

[Kelesti]

When people start talking about how Disc has been nerfed in its HPS potential are you taking into account that it now receives +25% healing done as a passive tree bonus?

And that it can now also receive an 18% bonus to Heal and Greater Heal output as a first tier Holy talent?

[Fenixdown]

I'm not going to lie, Kel. The more I see wave after wave after wave of tweaking, adding, subtracting, and modifying to holy, the more and more I get the feeling Blizzard has decided that discipline is no longer a PvE build to rely on.

Barrier sounds nice, but at a 3 minute cooldown and currently no reduction to it (unlike to our other talents, which does not fit in my mind), it is simply a situational benefit in end-game content, basically something you fire off once or maybe twice (likely more on final bosses, if at the timeframe lengths of Lich King or Yogg-Saron).

Our promised healing increases have been, to this current point, lackluster. A mere 15% on our base single target spells (but not Penance, which loses benefit due to the decrease from Twin Disciplines at present) and 10% on Renew, and decreases through other means to make even these bonuses less major.

I do not like being the Negative Nancy, but this is not looking well for us one bit. Compared to the massive wave upon wave upon wave of new toys coming for holy, discipline is going to be left out in the cold. If not solely based on the fact that it will simply be far more boring to play, based also on the fact that it simply will not be able to keep up with the concepts of Cataclysm's raiding scene.

I keep fingers crossed, prayers recited, and a glimmer of hope remains. But it's swiftly fading the closer the weeks draw to Deathwing's arrival to Azeroth. Cataclysm is looking like something that's going to happen to much more than the landscape, it looks like something that's going to happen to an entire tree build.

[Rystastic]

I'm pretty sure that Archangel is not meant to boost Disc in the healing department as a standard tool of your healing.

I would agree if it weren't for the fact that Archangel can provide 15% bonus healing. Honestly. I'm fine with there being an option to cast damage abilities for low or no mana during healing down time.. but to practically force priests to do damage while healing for increased healing is asinine.

[elossa]

would love it if they finaly made a holy dmg dps spec emaning disc being buffs/holy dmg xD but disc always been a heal thrue absorb and buffs i thought and as some1 pointed out what is the passive mastery? alsto being the small healer ower long time spammer?

[Neichus]

I would agree if it weren't for the fact that Archangel can provide 15% bonus healing. Honestly. I'm fine with there being an option to cast damage abilities for low or no mana during healing down time.. but to practically force priests to do damage while healing for increased healing is asinine.

I don't think they're forced though. What you're missing is that in order to have even a semi-decent efficiency with Archangel you have to have Twisted Faith. This means your build will be 31/3/7. Those 3 points are either Divine Fury for better nuking/healing or Empowered Healing for just better single-target heals. You can't get both. And forget Improved Healing, Inspiration, or Desperate Prayer. In exchange you get a burst healing cooldown + mana return + Atonement's smart healing. Personally I don't want to heal and nuke so I won't be going for a hit build, and I'm optimistic that whether I go Holy or Disc that'll work out fine.

[Deleted]

I'm not going to lie, Kel. The more I see wave after wave after wave of tweaking, adding, subtracting, and modifying to holy, the more and more I get the feeling Blizzard has decided that discipline is no longer a PvE build to rely on.

Barrier sounds nice, but at a 3 minute cooldown and currently no reduction to it (unlike to our other talents, which does not fit in my mind), it is simply a situational benefit in end-game content, basically something you fire off once or maybe twice (likely more on final bosses, if at the timeframe lengths of Lich King or Yogg-Saron).

Our promised healing increases have been, to this current point, lackluster. A mere 15% on our base single target spells (but not Penance, which loses benefit due to the decrease from Twin Disciplines at present) and 10% on Renew, and decreases through other means to make even these bonuses less major.

I do not like being the Negative Nancy, but this is not looking well for us one bit. Compared to the massive wave upon wave upon wave of new toys coming for holy, discipline is going to be left out in the cold. If not solely based on the fact that it will simply be far more boring to play, based also on the fact that it simply will not be able to keep up with the concepts of Cataclysm's raiding scene.

I keep fingers crossed, prayers recited, and a glimmer of hope remains. But it's swiftly fading the closer the weeks draw to Deathwing's arrival to Azeroth. Cataclysm is looking like something that's going to happen to much more than the landscape, it looks like something that's going to happen to an entire tree build.

There hasn't been, one, single, endgame instance tested.
We're not even talking Heroic testing yet.

Why would you start to fret over something as easily hotfixed as the numbers, when the numbers themselves haven't even been tested competetively yet? Mindless doomcrying and naysaying abounds, eegads for sooth. Oh, lest we forget ''Oh noes, Holy gets more toys then we do!! '' Unadulterated QQ. Consider perhaps that the spec famed for possessing Improved Death may need something added to it, before blowing the attention seeking whistle for Disc. Archangel sounds cool. Bubbles are cool. Penance is cool. PW:barrier sounds cool. Focus on these things, lest the QQ wears upon thee too mucheth.

[Deleted]

Lets face it, blizzard wants to completely change they way disc plays in nerfing the hell out of it and making it a pure holy and shadow support tree.
They might as well just remove every talent above tier2 since nobody will be a full disc priest anymore, apart from fun reasons.

Disc has ALWAYS been damg PREVENTIOn and NOT healing in the first place.
Now its a bad to medicore prevention and a medicore heal.
What do we have that sets us apart from holy ?
PW:S ? not really since holy can now get PW:S that is almost as good as disc.
PW:B ? yeah cool spell on a 3 min cooldown that prevents as much damg as 2 CoH are healing in 20 secs (competely useless)
DA ? a talent that puts a bubble on players for every CRIT heal ? ( Of course it was necessary to NERF the crit on our heals then)

Blizzard has no clue whatsoever what to do with the disc tree.

They nerfed the hell out of it to a point where its UNPLAYABLE if you want to be even remotely competitive to other healers, cause they dont want us to play like we did before cata, while offering NO alternative at all how we SHALL play.

I mean come on............

Nerfing our absorbs cause they want us to use more heals and give us as mastery that buffs our absorbs to the "prenerf" numbers (giving a buff to something you nerfed before makes the buff USELESS)

Just tossing out a 25% heal buff clearly shows they are bored of disc and have no more ideas.

Its pretty much "Yeah we fucked disc completely up but we dont have any idea how to fix it so we just throw you a boring heal buff to make you shut up"....................

[Neichus]

Discipline still has three cooldowns: Pain Suppression, Power Infusion, and PW: Barrier (in the last case the numbers are likely not tuned). Penance scales beautifully on Beta with Haste, getting whole bonus ticks. Shielding still offers a unique approach to "healing" that no healer replicates and despite the overall power being nerfed it still has good synergy with Borrowed Time, Renewed Hope, and Rapture. Archangel is certainly an interesting approach to the nuke-healing design, certainly different from any other healer.

If you think Discipline could use something a little shinier to compete with Holy then that's fine. But claiming that Blizzard doesn't understand the tree, or has abandoned it, or that it clearly won't be competitive are just foolish statements.

[Deleted]

There hasn't been, one, single, endgame instance tested.
We're not even talking Heroic testing yet.

Blizzard is already testing raids and heroics internally. For months now I suggest.

With the current trees disc will get a slight increase in HPS due to Empowered Healing ... and, uh oh, that's it. Granted, the Greater Heal, Flash Heal and Heal spells will be nearer to the one holy is casting (but the holy mastery together with Chakra will make sure that theirs have a higher HPS). Is this enough for tank healing?
Even worse:
The disc priests HoT (renew) is still a waste of Mana.
The disc priests AoE healing is still based on PoH. In WotLK disc priests used shield-spamming to work around this weakness. How are we supposed to heal groups?
The disc priests PoM is still weaker than the holy version and will still be overwritten.

I still think that Blizzard is going to look into disc in the next weeks. Besides the new promised shield there may be other disc spells coming. At least I hope so.