[Priest] Blessed Prayers - 4.0 Holy Discussion

[Lysdexic]

Yeah, I can't say I agree with that bs new totem. I forgot shammies were struggling for buffs!

[Kelesti]

Yeah, I can't say I agree with that bs new totem. I forgot shammies were struggling for buffs!

What the fuck? Like, really.

"We don't want you to have a single buff that guarantees you'll be brought, but we'll force 10 man content down everyone's throats and you'll have more buffs than anyone else that they'd need an extra three people anyways!"

...

Good. Fucking. Game.

inb4 "umad" memes.

[AetherMcLoud]

Yeah as it stands now healing priests bring fortitude (shared with warriors and warlocks and maybe someone else?) and shadowprotection which is shared with paladins (and shamans now? think they got a magic resist totem?) and is really nichê and only useful for very few fights. I really thought both healing and shadowpriests were the perfect candidates for conc aura because shadows flay a lot and healing priests only have 1 real raidbuff now.

[Dianthe]

I think priests have too many instant casts to make conc aura useful outside of a raiding environment. The only thing that puzzles me here is that the conc aura totem is a water one - if I remember correctly the mana stream and healing stream totems are also water totems (?) so that means that a shaman has to choose between bringing conc aura or those buffs, while one paladin can have conc aura up and buff wisdommight blessing of no name?

I'd also not worry so much about this whole buff thing tbh. People bing healers to raids to heal - if you are a good healer you will still have your place. I'm actually somewhat relieved to not have to use 3 candles every damned wipe... >_>

[Kelesti]

Too many instants? You mean Prayer of Mending? Because we're shifting off of instant spam into direct healing. Blanket-Renews isn't going to be sustainable. Circle of Healing has a 10 second cooldown. Penance is also greatly affected by spell pushback (as is Smite, Holy Fire, Mind Spike, Mind Sear, Mind Blast, and if you want to go there, Vampiric Touch and Mind Flay)

"Outside of a raid environment" what? You mean solo? Last I checked, sometimes those pulls get ugly (especially these ones).

5-mans? Have you seen the new 5-mans? They're brutal. AoE damage all over the place, people (especially tanks) getting insta-gibbed by not only boss, but trash mechanics. Stuff hurts. Having something to prevent pushback can make the difference between moving on and another repair-bill. In PvP, it would be another thing to bring Holy up to the forefront, as a strong and capable healer.

Doesn't change the fact that "outside of a raid environment" is a moot point, because it's a "raid-buff". And, for the record, that Shaman can also bring Tranquil Mind at the same time as Stoneskin, but a Paladin can't bring Devotion Aura and Concentration Aura.

Your mention of candles is giggleworthy. They're gone. Power Word: Fortitude buffs your hole group if you're in it when you cast. So not only would you not have three, you would have one but now you have zero! Additional buffs don't change this.

People bring raiders to contribute. If you have a Shaman and a Holy Priest competing for the same role in a 10 man, you don't "bring them both". You bring whichever one's suited to the job. As it stands, they're both suited to the job, but when you bring the Shaman you get "stuff". Free stuff, awesome stuff. Just -stuff-, that comes alongside it that doesn't even count Bloodlust.

[Ynna]

The new talent changes look pretty good. I've been playing around with the talent calculator and I must say it's a much more pleasant experience. You still have some choices to make (mostly throughput vs. Mana) but they aren't that hard anymore.
The new Chakra looks a lot cooler, I just hope it ends up being a bonus and not what makes our spells actually balanced.

[Dianthe]

Too many instants? You mean Prayer of Mending? Because we're shifting off of instant spam into direct healing. Blanket-Renews isn't going to be sustainable. Circle of Healing has a 10 second cooldown. Penance is also greatly affected by spell pushback (as is Smite, Holy Fire, Mind Spike, Mind Sear, Mind Blast, and if you want to go there, Vampiric Touch and Mind Flay)

"Outside of a raid environment" what? You mean solo? Last I checked, sometimes those pulls get ugly (especially these ones).

5-mans? Have you seen the new 5-mans? They're brutal. AoE damage all over the place, people (especially tanks) getting insta-gibbed by not only boss, but trash mechanics. Stuff hurts. Having something to prevent pushback can make the difference between moving on and another repair-bill. In PvP, it would be another thing to bring Holy up to the forefront, as a strong and capable healer.

Doesn't change the fact that "outside of a raid environment" is a moot point, because it's a "raid-buff". And, for the record, that Shaman can also bring Tranquil Mind at the same time as Stoneskin, but a Paladin can't bring Devotion Aura and Concentration Aura.

Your mention of candles is giggleworthy. They're gone. Power Word: Fortitude buffs your hole group if you're in it when you cast. So not only would you not have three, you would have one but now you have zero! Additional buffs don't change this.

People bring raiders to contribute. If you have a Shaman and a Holy Priest competing for the same role in a 10 man, you don't "bring them both". You bring whichever one's suited to the job. As it stands, they're both suited to the job, but when you bring the Shaman you get "stuff". Free stuff, awesome stuff. Just -stuff-, that comes alongside it that doesn't even count Bloodlust.

And you still have shields that keep you from being interrupted - renew, prom, circle of healing even if just those are still more instant casts than shamans have.
"Outisde of a raid environment" there is also this thing called "pvp" around which the game, sadly, has to be balanced.
No, I haven't seen the new 5 mans but I have been healing since forever - nothing will stay difficult enough for people to not be able to do - everything that has escaped betas before in that state (some HCs from TBC come to mind - were eventually nerfed, sooner rather than later). I don't see it as being that great in pvp - again you don't get spell push back through shields.
As holy you don't "just bring fort" you also bring GS - which is possibly the best healing CD out there, you bring Hymn of Hope - it restores not only your mana, you bring body and soul - for those times in which people need to run faster, and you bring kick-ass healing... As disc you bring PS and PI- yes on one target but you can cast it more than once a fight even with heroism.

You are also aware that with the ammount of buffs shamans and paladins share they almost make the other class redundant. Mages also bring heroism so there - you don't *need* a shaman in the raid anymore.

I'm not trying to say we didn't deserve the aura, but I don't think the world's ending because we did not get it.

And Kelesti - being a moderator and all you should probably be a bit more considerate about how you formulate your posts. In other topics you flame people for acting like the sky's falling and then you do the exact same thing in this reply, in a less than friendly tone.

I made my point saying that shamans have much more "casted" spells overall and it makes sense on a level from a pve and pvp perspective for them to get it - you are of course entitled to not agree, but please do so in a less aggressive way. There is no real "fight" going on here - merely a difference of opinions.

[Docta]

As holy you don't "just bring fort" you also bring GS - which is possibly the best healing CD out there

Best healing CD out there? Idk I've had quite a few tanks get killed by some tiny aoe dmg because the gs heal hadn't triggered..

[Deleted]

As holy you don't "just bring fort" you also bring GS - which is possibly the best healing CD out there, you bring Hymn of Hope - it restores not only your mana, you bring body and soul - for those times in which people need to run faster, and you bring kick-ass healing... As disc you bring PS and PI- yes on one target but you can cast it more than once a fight even with heroism.

You are also aware that with the ammount of buffs shamans and paladins share they almost make the other class redundant. Mages also bring heroism so there - you don't *need* a shaman in the raid anymore.

Well, you forget that Shaman got Mana tide for Hymn of useless.
You don't need a shaman anymore? lol, you know a elemental shaman brings 10 raid buffs?
We bring 2 tank CD and a DPS CD.

[Lysdexic]

I don't have much time, so I will have to elaborate more, but I think there are some issues with the priest talents in general, but I think this fits best in the holy thread.

Disc was ever the subspec tree, just like arcane for mages. I mean back when the wand spec talent existed, disc wasnt really a very viable tree (mind you, I liked that talent).

Currently, there is ZERO benefit for a shadowpriest to subspec holy. I know blizz harps on about choice, but there is none in the first two tiers of the holy tree. I realize that because of evangelism/archangel it's not much of an issue (it's pretty obvious they want everybody to get those talents). But who knows, maybe they could make some kind of creative alternative in the early holy tree (however that might just be a waste of design/balance time).

The other thing is the placement of twisted faith, as has been mentioned. If that talent were made put in tier 1, I think it generates another choice. What I think the best build will be is something like 8/31/2. The 2 points you put into shadow will either be veiled shadows or twisted faith. The only problem I have with that 'choice' is that it's not very fair. If you don't get twisted faith, there is almost no reason to shoot for evangelism/archangel. As such, any time you put your 2 points into shadow for veiled shadows, you might as well drop those points.

With 8 points in disc, you have 3 choices for the t2 talents. Evangelism/archangel OR imp inner fire (let's assume it will get renamed to imp disciplines and will affect inner will as well) OR soul warding. Maybe some holy priests will take the 2 talents the improve pw:s in t1 and take soul warding in t2 and go nuts with B&S (which could be fun).

Anyway, I'll post more later. Especially as we get closer to release, we can do precisely what blizzard wants to avoid and check out how to min max our builds, discussing the benefits/negatives of choices.

[Dianthe]

Well, you forget that Shaman got Mana tide for Hymn of useless.
You don't need a shaman anymore? lol, you know a elemental shaman brings 10 raid buffs?
We bring 2 tank CD and a DPS CD.

You are aware that shamans share those "10" buffs you are talking about with pretty much every class? Have you even looked on the shaman forums? There are 4 pages of QQ about how nobody will bring shamans anymore because all of their buffs are overwritten by some other class so they are "useless".
@ Docta - that is most likely lag for you. This does not change the fact that holy priests have a 1 min CD (if not used) that increases healing recieved by the target from all sources and saves people from dying if used right.

Yes and mana tide is party and range limited while HoH isn't- what is your point? It also doesn't increase your max mana.

You guys can post 70 walls of QQ about priests not bringing buffs - at the end of the day we bring tons of utlity regardless, even if not in the form of a "buff".

[Deleted]

You are aware that shamans share those "10" buffs you are talking about with pretty much every class? Have you even looked on the shaman forums? There are 4 pages of QQ about how nobody will bring shamans anymore because all of their buffs are overwritten by some other class so they are "useless".
@ Docta - that is most likely lag for you. This does not change the fact that holy priests have a 1 min CD (if not used) that increases healing recieved by the target from all sources and saves people from dying if used right.


Yes and mana tide is party and range limited while HoH isn't- what is your point? It also doesn't increase your max mana.

You guys can post 70 walls of QQ about priests not bringing buffs - at the end of the day we bring tons of utlity regardless, even if not in the form of a "buff".

We share THE ONLY BUFF we provide with warrior and Destro warlock.
I don't understand your point on shaman QQ with shared buffs.
So long as we bring only one buff and share it with 2 classes, we should QQ way more than shaman.
Also where are those tons of utility?
Disc = Power Infusion, Pain suppression
Holy = Guardian Spirit
Resto shaman = hex, bind elemental, grounding, earthbind, reicarnation, tremor, purge, bloodlust.
Holy paladin = Hand of protection, hand of sacrifice, hand of salvation, hand of freedom, aura mastery.
Where the hell are our tons of utilities?

[Tygerlily177]

We share THE ONLY BUFF we provide with warrior and Destro warlock.
I don't understand your point on shaman QQ with shared buffs.
So long as we bring only one buff and share it with 2 classes, we should QQ way more than shaman.
Also where are those tons of utility?
Disc = Power Infusion, Pain suppression
Holy = Guardian Spirit
Resto shaman = hex, bind elemental, grounding, earthbind, reicarnation, tremor, purge, bloodlust.
Holy paladin = Hand of protection, hand of sacrifice, hand of salvation, hand of freedom, aura mastery.
Where the hell are our tons of utilities?

Lightwell?

Sorry, couldn't resist. Don't hit me.

[Docta]

Docta - that is most likely lag for you. This does not change the fact that holy priests have a 1 min CD (if not used) that increases healing recieved by the target from all sources and saves people from dying if used right.

I'm almost positive it's a known bug that occurs when someone takes multiple killing blows within a very short time period, ie tank has 50k hp & GS is up on him, tank takes 60k hit & is put to 1 hp, dmg aura or w/e hits tank for 100 dmg, death before gs triggers... keep in mind the situation described would occur in a second or two. Also, technically we don't have a 1 min cd as it counts uptime before resetting the cd.

[Deleted]

As far as I see it, Lightwell is currently awkward and fiddly.

I think the best thing they could do to it would be to duplicate the ones the mobs used in Trial of the Champion Heroic. For those who don't know: The lightwell fires out holy bolts which jump to nearby allies and heal them for a certain amount.

Change it to be like this and I reckon there would be a lot of happy priests out there, without making them "overpowered".

[Ynna]

As far as I see it, Lightwell is currently awkward and fiddly.

I think the best thing they could do to it would be to duplicate the ones the mobs used in Trial of the Champion Heroic. For those who don't know: The lightwell fires out holy bolts which jump to nearby allies and heal them for a certain amount.

Change it to be like this and I reckon there would be a lot of happy priests out there, without making them "overpowered".

Not directed directly to you but people need to stop suggesting this. Blizzard has stated that Lightwell will not become like the one in totc, because they feel priests have enough smart heals as it is.

[Lysdexic]

As far as I see it, Lightwell is currently awkward and fiddly.

I think the best thing they could do to it would be to duplicate the ones the mobs used in Trial of the Champion Heroic. For those who don't know: The lightwell fires out holy bolts which jump to nearby allies and heal them for a certain amount.

Change it to be like this and I reckon there would be a lot of happy priests out there, without making them "overpowered".

There NEEDS to be a "read before posting" sticky at the top, I don't care if it only mentions this, but it's gotta stop, it's making me cry.

Most of this page is just senseless chatter/whine that has nothing to do with holy & cataclysm.

[Timberwolfe]

Talent for Binding heal - binds your health to the target as well with the heal, transferring 10% of their next damage to you, cannot exceed 25% of priest's health.

Bit of an issue with this.

> Binding heal a target & your self
> Im still a little damages and some one else needs a heal too
> Binding heal a second target
> 1st target gets hit taking 25% of my health
> I bind heal a 3rd and 4th target
> 2nd, 3rd and 4th target get hit with a large aoe
> Likely im dead unless on full health a the time...

[Neichus]

My primary concerns right now with Holy are:

-I think Twisted Faith needs to be T1 Shadow. As I've stated elsewhere it's just not reasonable for Holy to go into T2 Shadow and get Archangel as well. For Discipline it would provide a choice: assuming you're going for a nuke-oriented build you have to forgo other benefits in order to get those 2 points in Shadow.
-Binding Prayers and Heavenly Voice are lackluster. I'm fairly optimistic that we'll see those talents upgraded in time.
-Serendipity could stand to be changed to 20% per FH/BH, but only stack up to 2 times. This would make it easier to charge up under emergency situations (where unlike now we can't count on FH/BH being cast frequently) Unlike many people though I think its link to FH/BH is good, as it makes it feel less mandatory.
-Test of Faith needs to either be made into a 2-point talent or moved elsewhere in the tree and replaced by a 2-pointer (perhaps swap with B&S). The reason is that Tier 6 has 3 "must take" talents in CoH and State of Mind, meaning that any 3-point talent will put you over the 31-point cap (nobody in their right mind skips GS). While this isn't necessarily bad to go over 31 points in your own tree, I think it is bad when the only way to max out a talent is to do so.
-Lightwell is still causes you to select it when right-clicking, which is irritating. Unlike many I'm not pessimistic about the ability, I just think it needs a larger click radius (somewhere between 10 and 15 yards) along with a fix to the de-targeting and it will be more attractive.

Overall though I'm pretty happy with how the tree is shaping up.

[Kelesti]

I'm still of the opinion if the effects of Heavenly Voice were switched, it would be an immense talent. Faster Divine Hymns, and a guaranteed mana return for yourself off Hymn of Hope? Yes, please!

But then Discipline would want it too! Bad Disc Priests, bad! Shoo, go away!