Revamped Twisted Faith

[Kelesti]

Change "effects. Also," to "effects, but you no longer gain benefit from hit rating on cloth."

Druids can make use of armor on a cloak or weapon, they just don't get "bonus armor". That's the kind of thinking I'm seeing here.

[syleth]

If mana is truly an issue again in Cataclysm, Twisted Faith will make Spirit>Hit. If shadowpriests keep some spirit to spell power conversion like with current glyphs, spirit>>>hit. I'm guessing they won't let us double dip with spirit, so I think the glyph likely goes away.

[Thrayne]

If mana is truly an issue again in Cataclysm, Twisted Faith will make Spirit>Hit. If shadowpriests keep some spirit to spell power conversion like with current glyphs, spirit>>>hit. I'm guessing they won't let us double dip with spirit, so I think the glyph likely goes away.

There isn't a 5 sec rule, there is in combat regen and ooc regen.

[Kelesti]

If mana is truly an issue again in Cataclysm, Twisted Faith will make Spirit>Hit. If shadowpriests keep some spirit to spell power conversion like with current glyphs, spirit>>>hit. I'm guessing they won't let us double dip with spirit, so I think the glyph likely goes away.

Spirit:Spell power conversion is gone, period. Intellect is your source of Spell Power, except on weapons and/or trinkets.

For casters, you get Replenishment and Cooldowns, both from intellect. You have mana regeneration outside of combat, but only if you're a healer do you have any mana regen from Spirit while in combat.

[Neichus]

What I'm confused about is why Twisted Faith is in Tier 2 rather than Tier 1. As it stands it's impossible for Holy to get both Twisted Faith and Archangel, which seems entirely counterproductive to their nuke-healing design.

Thus far it seems like the hook for such builds has been that their nuking capacity is tied in some way to their healing; talents like Evangelism, Archangel, Atonement, Focused Insight and Telluric Currents (latter two are Shaman) all make it so that nuking has the potential, when used right, to supplement healing. Perhaps I'm not seeing what Blizzard is, but I see no appeal in the idea that a healer nukes just because it's fun; that's convenient for leveling, or if it's your only 85 and needs to do dailies, but I'm not convinced anybody will take dps-healing seriously unless it enhances a healer's primary purpose in a party or raid. Evangelism/Archangel so far has provided that hook, but by making it mutually exclusive with the spellhit talent I just don't get what Blizzard is playing at.

[Kelesti]

Someone playing beta needs to correct me, because I may definitely be wrong, but the wording on Evangelism isn't on hit, but on spellcast, meaning if it misses or not, you're still awarded the buff.

And Neichus, you're also missing the point:

In 5 mans, what do you do now? Do you spam smite and/or Holy Nova? Do you even queue as heals when you're Shadow Priest and lolVampiricEmbrace heal the entire instance? The point of these talents is to take advantage of that type of environment when you can.

Remember XT-002? Or Lana'thel pre-bite, or anything else in this bloody stupid game? There are times when healing isn't intense yet, but you're there to pick up the slack for when it gets worse.

This happens now, in live. It's going to be happening in Cataclysm. What do you do? You can a) spam heals and be pointless, you can B) stand around and regen mana which is fine on Arthas with a 30% buff, or you can c) DPS to help whatever your current goal is die faster.

These choices happen on live, and they're intended to happen in Cataclysm. That's what these points are for. Well, that and also PvP.

"Healer DPS" isn't supposed to be taken seriously as a major contribution, but it is supposed to be a contribution when you have nothing better to be doing at the time.

[Neichus]

I guess I have a hard time buying that scheme. It feels similar to the design for hybrids in Classic, which was a patent failure.

I look at Shamans as a more realistic model for damage-healing. They have two damage-oriented talents; one that causes their Shocks to cheapen/empower their next heal and another that causes their Lightning Bolt to restore mana. Both of these seem like good talents, worth the 3-point investment in the Elemental hit talent. They give a smart Shaman tools to deal with movement situations and knowing when (s)he can fit in a Lightning Bolt or two to get some mana. In both cases the damaging activity also has healing benefits; as a bonus they can also help out during these "boring" times when their healing isn't needed. This seems like a far more useful design to me.

[Dianthe]

And priests get a mana return + increased healing after using Archangel? I don't see the difference? Nobody says you need to have it up all the time- but for the times in which you can afford it ( I don't see it happening in early Cata though) you have a mana regen and healing throughoutput talent in one?

[takolin]

Maybe this:


*New* Twisted Faith: Increases your chance to hit with shadow spells by 1/2%, and grants you spell hit rating equal to 50/100% of any Spirit gained from items or effects. Also, you no longer benefit from hit rating due to your twisted belief in the power of shadow.


Thoughts?

That would work, but balance druids and ele shamans have the possibility to use hit on rings/trinkets/necklaces so it would be unfair to priests to deny them those items.

In the end it would come down to making good lootrules with your guild/pug.

I can see something like this:

Lots of mages/locks and no/few healing priests => shadow rolls on spirit.
Not many mages/locks and quite a few healing priests => shadow rolls on hit.

[Frmercury]

@ Kelesti

:P

@ New Twisted Faith

[Kelesti]

@Frmercury

I will cause bodily harm.

To this kitten.

[Frmercury]

No! Not the kitten.

Coincidentally my friend just got a kitten. Through a stammering of words Cute + Kitten = Cutten, and that is his name now.

[Deleted]

And priests get a mana return + increased healing after using Archangel? I don't see the difference? Nobody says you need to have it up all the time- but for the times in which you can afford it ( I don't see it happening in early Cata though) you have a mana regen and healing throughoutput talent in one?

Archangel is horrible. The mana cost you spent casting Smite is higher than the talent restores.
And no, Evangelism is not on spellcast, but on hit. (i am in beta)
Way to improve archangel:
1: buff mana restore from archangel, from 15% to 25% mana
2: evangelism stackable to 3 but you still get 15% mana when consumed with archangel
I vote for the 2nd.

[fabian]

Someone playing beta needs to correct me, because I may definitely be wrong, but the wording on Evangelism isn't on hit, but on spellcast, meaning if it misses or not, you're still awarded the buff.

I'm pretty sure I saw someone confirm that each tick of MF can proc Evangelism.

[Deleted]

That would work, but balance druids and ele shamans have the possibility to use hit on rings/trinkets/necklaces so it would be unfair to priests to deny them those items.

In the end it would come down to making good lootrules with your guild/pug.

I can see something like this:

Lots of mages/locks and no/few healing priests => shadow rolls on spirit.
Not many mages/locks and quite a few healing priests => shadow rolls on hit.

Another point worth mentioning is the fact that this spirit>hit conversion asctually costs you two points which otherwise would have been spent on more functional talents. The Mage/Warlock are freed from this conversion tax(let's call it that).

So, it might look something like this:

-2 points + Gear options(that is debatable due to the fact that healers will get spirit prioirty, anyhu).
+2 points - Gear options.


Isn't that fair enough?

[Kaesebrezen]

Another point worth mentioning is the fact that this spirit>hit conversion asctually costs you two points which otherwise would have been spent on more functional talents. The Mage/Warlock are freed from this conversion tax(let's call it that).

There are no other functional talents you'd want. 2% hit + conversion is superior to everything else you could pick else PvE Priests.
Well, there are already 4 talent points you have to waste on pure PvP talents to even reach the 31 points in shadow.

[Neichus]

And priests get a mana return + increased healing after using Archangel? I don't see the difference? Nobody says you need to have it up all the time- but for the times in which you can afford it ( I don't see it happening in early Cata though) you have a mana regen and healing throughoutput talent in one?

That's my point. It's not possible for Holy to get Twisted Faith and Archangel simultaneously. So either you're going to have significantly lower efficiency on your nuking (as well as the irritation of 17% resist) or you're not going to be do anything with your nuking besides the straight damage. Kelesti responded that I shouldn't care about that, since the damage was there just to have something to do not to provide additional healing utility.

[Kaesebrezen]

Archangel is horrible. The mana cost you spent casting Smite is higher than the talent restores.
And no, Evangelism is not on spellcast, but on hit. (i am in beta)
Way to improve archangel:
1: buff mana restore from archangel, from 15% to 25% mana
2: evangelism stackable to 3 but you still get 15% mana when consumed with archangel
I vote for the 2nd.

How about you go back to math class?
At 83 i use 6860 mana to reach 5 stacks evangelism, my manapool is 48636.
48636 * 0,15 = 7230. And to increase the manareg further, add in Arcane Intellect and Mark of the Wild.

Archangel will always reg mana, the higher the stacks are, the more it will reg.
As holy i wouldn't even bother about using mana on smite. Just use your surge procs when there is no need for Holy Nova AoE heal.

I'm pretty sure I saw someone confirm that each tick of MF can proc Evangelism.

Yes it does, but that's because DoTs can proc everything on tick now, including your trinkets. Even Pain and Suffering procs on tick and not on cast.
Smite-Evangelism procs on hit and not on cast.

[Deleted]

How about you go back to math class?
At 83 i use 6860 mana to reach 5 stacks evangelism, my manapool is 48636.
48636 * 0,15 = 7230. And to increase the manareg further, add in Arcane Intellect and Mark of the Wild.

Archangel will always reg mana, the higher the stacks are, the more it will reg.
As holy i wouldn't even bother about using mana on smite. Just use your surge procs when there is no need for Holy Nova AoE heal.

I've done my homework too:
My mana pool is 49323, 5x smites = 6955
Archangel = 7398
1^ smite = 1581
2^ smite = 1486
3^ smite = 1391
4^ smite = 1296
5^ smite = 1201

7398-6955 = 443

10 secs casting an useless spell for 443 mana? lol

[Kelesti]

you forgot to factor in the miss chance that you're likely to spend at least one smite's worth of mana and not gain a stack (thanks to people correcting me!), so it may very well be a negative return on mana.

But you get +15% healing! That's totally worth spending half your time doing 0 healing for the chance at 500 mana!

Like I said, a talent giving you "something to do", can't really be deemed a functional part of in-combat regen. That being said, if I can spare the points, I'll grab it.