Imp. SW:P needs to be reconsidered and updated

[Annesh]

Sin and Punishment is just not very good. A joke, really.

Phantasm still needs to provide short duration snare/root immunity, and/or I'd actually like to see it break stuns. Ret-spec BoF has been breaking stuns for two years now, and can be applied to teammates.

Imp Psychic Scream is still garbage, and still needs to be unlinked from Silence.

I really wish Paralysis proc'd from all Mind Blasts, not just crits. It has potential, but requiring 3 seconds of cast time to set it up just seems awkward.

Apparitions are still a stupid mechanic, and I'll be both surprised and disheartened if they make it through the beta in their current state. The way it stands, PvE DPS will require spriests to dance back and forth while GCD'd (such as the 1.2-1.5 seconds after DP etc) in order to coax a proc, and this is just unintuitive and awkward gameplay, the very kind Blizz has tried to kill in the past (rogue weapon swapping etc).

Orbs are okay, but I wish they weren't consumed by Mind Spike. If it were just Blast, you could build up three orbs and then go spike+spike+HUGE instant blast. Because of this, it seems like there's a slight conflict of design, where between Mind Melt and the +30% crit stack per Spike, the intention seems to be that we cast spike a few times then Blast, but if orbs are all eaten up by the first Spike then that combo loses its rhythm. Meaning, instead of the cool rotational rhythm of "spike spike spike BLAST!!!," it's more like "SPIKE! spike spike Blast." Does that make sense? Probably not.

I guess my use of the word Offal was pretty extreme. Shadow still has problems that need fixing, but it's not garbage.

My main complaint is that mages and warlocks are still ten times the cloth dpsers that we are, and while they're evolving dramatically for Cata, we're just getting a few minor tweaks and small toys.

[Abandon]

Orbs are okay, but I wish they weren't consumed by Mind Spike. If it were just Blast, you could build up three orbs and then go spike+spike+HUGE instant blast. Because of this, it seems like there's a slight conflict of design, where between Mind Melt and the +30% crit stack per Spike, the intention seems to be that we cast spike a few times then Blast, but if orbs are all eaten up by the first Spike then that combo loses its rhythm. Meaning, instead of the cool rotational rhythm of "spike spike spike BLAST!!!," it's more like "SPIKE! spike spike Blast." Does that make sense? Probably not.

I agree with a lot of your other points, but with this isn't it more of a choice? I mean, you can use Spike, Spike, then Mind Flay to hopefully build a couple of orbs and then Mind Blast to take advantage of the Orbs with Mind Blast, since the buff to your crit stays on you for a while.

[Annesh]

I agree with a lot of your other points, but with this isn't it more of a choice? I mean, you can use Spike, Spike, then Mind Flay to hopefully build a couple of orbs and then Mind Blast to take advantage of the Orbs with Mind Blast, since the buff to your crit stays on you for a while.

Mind Spike's +crit% buff lasts enough time to do that I think, but last I saw, the Mind Melt buff only lasts 6 seconds, undermining your ability to build up orbs while still retaining the instant MB.

So maybe I'm just thinking about it wrong. Maybe they don't intend the instant blasts to gain the enormous orb benefits, and 3 orb blasts are meant more for pve dps.

I dunno.

[Abandon]

I see your point, but you would probably want to use Mind Blast as soon as you can after it comes off cooldown, so waiting to build up stacks may not be the best idea, however it may make more sense if Mind Spike produced Shadow Orbs instead of consuming them. At the moment, you should get the buff refreshed when you cast the second Mind Spike, giving you three seconds to channel Mind Flay and plenty of time to get off Mind Blast while the buff is still active, but it is a little unintuitive that Spike consumes orbs rather than creating them, I see your point.

[Radux]

I see major issues concerning Mind Spike creating orbs.

[Repo123]

Imo spriests are far better off than alot of other specs out there (and yes I play a priest).

What are you willing to give up for them making changes?

[sicness]

Clearly Blizzard is trying to keep the first tier of all talent trees simple so a new players won't be overwhelmed by their complexity.

Honestly, I think it's more so players have a reason to spec into other trees instead of putting all of your points into one. Passive damage talents in the low tiers 'forces' players to pick them up regardless of spec, which isn't a bad thing as for the majority of specs it gives access to a utility/damage talent in the second tier that's of some use.

[allforone]

My main complaint is that mages and warlocks are still ten times the cloth dpsers that we are, and while they're evolving dramatically for Cata, we're just getting a few minor tweaks and small toys.

No, it's just "grass is greener over in my neighbor's yard" syndrome. So far frankly I think fire mages have had the biggest major change, being able to cast scorch while moving. Locks, the biggest change we have so far is really just Soulburn Seed, everything else is just minor tweaks and a ton of highly situational toys.

[Veralas]

Make the talent work like the glyph of Shadow Word: Pain, it adds a form of active mana regen available to all specs then.

Because priests need more mana regen talents.

[Kelesti]

Because priests need more mana regen talents.

Shadow runs OoM in 80 seconds, and for Holy and Discipline, casting it is a net loss of mana, even before you count in the fact you have a 17% miss chance.

[Annesh]

I see your point, but you would probably want to use Mind Blast as soon as you can after it comes off cooldown, so waiting to build up stacks may not be the best idea, however it may make more sense if Mind Spike produced Shadow Orbs instead of consuming them. At the moment, you should get the buff refreshed when you cast the second Mind Spike, giving you three seconds to channel Mind Flay and plenty of time to get off Mind Blast while the buff is still active, but it is a little unintuitive that Spike consumes orbs rather than creating them, I see your point.

Radux is right, Spike generating orbs would probably be a little crazy, but I'm glad you see what I mean.

No, it's just "grass is greener over in my neighbor's yard" syndrome. So far frankly I think fire mages have had the biggest major change, being able to cast scorch while moving. Locks, the biggest change we have so far is really just Soulburn Seed, everything else is just minor tweaks and a ton of highly situational toys.

I have no doubt I'm grass-is-greenering just a little bit, but so are you. The warlock is the class I'm actually most jealous of, between Felfire Bolt, Soul Swap, Shadowflame horrify, whole new Soul Shard system that gives you something like 6-8 totally new options on a short cooldown, and not to mention some very nice general polish in your talent trees and spells.

And yeah, Scorch on the run makes me envious for three reasons: it looks insanely fun, it's potentially unspeakably powerful (overpoweringly so), and it's incredibly creative and interesting, changing the spec in a very profound way. Compared to the inexplicably timid and uncommitted (not to mention uncreative) way with which they've always approached buffs for Shadow, it really looks like giving one kid a PS3 and a Mercedes for Christmas, and giving the other kid a used pocket calculator, for no reason other than favoritism.

[Deleted]

Sin and Punishment is just not very good. A joke, really.

Phantasm still needs to provide short duration snare/root immunity, and/or I'd actually like to see it break stuns. Ret-spec BoF has been breaking stuns for two years now, and can be applied to teammates.

Imp Psychic Scream is still garbage, and still needs to be unlinked from Silence.

I really wish Paralysis proc'd from all Mind Blasts, not just crits. It has potential, but requiring 3 seconds of cast time to set it up just seems awkward.

Apparitions are still a stupid mechanic, and I'll be both surprised and disheartened if they make it through the beta in their current state. The way it stands, PvE DPS will require spriests to dance back and forth while GCD'd (such as the 1.2-1.5 seconds after DP etc) in order to coax a proc, and this is just unintuitive and awkward gameplay, the very kind Blizz has tried to kill in the past (rogue weapon swapping etc).

Orbs are okay, but I wish they weren't consumed by Mind Spike. If it were just Blast, you could build up three orbs and then go spike+spike+HUGE instant blast. Because of this, it seems like there's a slight conflict of design, where between Mind Melt and the +30% crit stack per Spike, the intention seems to be that we cast spike a few times then Blast, but if orbs are all eaten up by the first Spike then that combo loses its rhythm. Meaning, instead of the cool rotational rhythm of "spike spike spike BLAST!!!," it's more like "SPIKE! spike spike Blast." Does that make sense? Probably not.

I guess my use of the word Offal was pretty extreme. Shadow still has problems that need fixing, but it's not garbage.

My main complaint is that mages and warlocks are still ten times the cloth dpsers that we are, and while they're evolving dramatically for Cata, we're just getting a few minor tweaks and small toys.

^this

Suggestion:
Delete Sin and Punishment. Make VT like UA but instead of the silence the dispeller will be horrored in addiction to the backlash damage.
Delete Imp. Psychic Scream. Add the reduced cd to the spell itself.
Add a snare/root immunity to Phantasm.
Make Shadow Orbs only usable with Mind Blast and SW:death.
Remove Dispersion as a 31-point ability, replace it with a DPS cd. (dispersion will remain in the shadow tree tho)

[Annesh]

Delete Sin and Punishment. Make VT like UA but instead of the silence the dispeller will be horrored in addiction to the backlash damage.

I actually have the same problem here that I have with the current implementation, in that it DR's Psychic Horror. UA backlash doesn't DR anything else that Locks have except the silence component of Spell Lock, and even then they can still use it as an actual interrupt.

I'd actually rather see it as a straight up 4 second stun, and I've also seen suggestions that it be a mana drain instead, although I don't know if that would be good enough incentive not to dispel it.

The key is to think about it from the dispeller's point of view: what would be strong enough to reliably deter me from dispelling VT?

I just don't think a little 3 second horror and nothing else will do that, especially when they can dispel themselves in a favorable situation (i.e. high health and unlikely to die) in order to protect themselves from the inevitable Psychic Horror.

Delete Imp. Psychic Scream. Add the reduced cd to the spell itself.

^

Add a snare/root immunity to Phantasm.

nom nom nom

or have it break stuns like i suggested

Make Shadow Orbs only usable with Mind Blast and SW:death.

yes, that would be a far more elegant implementation.

Remove Dispersion as a 31-point ability, replace it with a DPS cd. (dispersion will remain in the shadow tree tho)

eh, i've never been behind the hate for dispersion as the 31 point talent. why does its position matter? if you just want a DPS cd then campaign for one, but why aim your campaign at dispersion's position in the tree? weird.

[Deleted]

eh, i've never been behind the hate for dispersion as the 31 point talent. why does its position matter? if you just want a DPS cd then campaign for one, but why aim your campaign at dispersion's position in the tree? weird.

Because shadow is a DPS tree.
The final 31-point talent that everyone should take must not be a mana cooldown.
I will not pick it if it remains as a 31-point talent, Archangel and Shadowfiend are enough.

I recall GC who said that if no one take a 31-point talent then there is a problem about it.
When we had 71 talent points it wasnt a real problem. But now that we have only 41 points, every single point counts.