Hunters - The Reason Blizzard has trouble balancing melee vs caster pvp?

[Sy]

Irrelevant to arena/pvp discussion. Hunters don't run around in arena with that kind of arp... and you can't SS spam most of the time. With 1000-1200 resilience I have around 200-300 arp from gear(not to mention you don't gem arp in pvp). The physical damage shots just don't hit like they do in 1400 arp.

while it's true that a hunter with full pvp gear won't be at 1000arp, calling my entire post "irrelevant" is, sorry, bullshit.

1) many hunters wear some parts of pve gear in pvp and get to about 500-700 arp. and i never even said anything about 1400arp.

2) "you can't SS spam most of the time" uuuhmm.. that is exactly my point. you can't do that, most of the time. why can't you do that? riiight, it's because you have to move.

3) even if you don't take steady shot and higher arp ratings into consideration, autoshot would still be around 25%. in your "90%" calculation, you would only do 10% damage with autoshot AND steady shot while standing still. that's just simply not true, not even close.

[Deleted]

EDIT: Folks, hunters are just not that OP. They're average, and have their own advantages and disadvantages. OP was 3.0 Death Knights; THAT made the game unbalanced. WoW is not unbalanced because hunters do not play the same as other classes. They are no different from a warrior than a warlock is different from a warrior; the whole point of the game is that different classes play differently. Learn to adapt.

Can you sex me please?

[Lilcheeks]

while it's true that a hunter with full pvp gear won't be at 1000arp, calling my entire post "irrelevant" is, sorry, bullshit.

1) many hunters wear some parts of pve gear in pvp and get to about 500-700 arp. and i never even said anything about 1400arp.

2) "you can't SS spam most of the time" uuuhmm.. that is exactly my point. you can't do that, most of the time. why can't you do that? riiight, it's because you have to move.

3) even if you don't take steady shot and higher arp ratings into consideration, autoshot would still be around 25%. in your "90%" calculation, you would only do 10% damage with autoshot AND steady shot while standing still. that's just simply not true, not even close.

Sorry about that. The part where you talked about 1000 arp was irrelevant to the discussion, my bad.

[Sy]

Can you sex me please?

bunny! no sex in pointle..uhm, serious pvp discussion threads!

Sorry about that. The part where you talked about 1000 arp was irrelevant to the discussion, my bad.

okay, you may have a point then^^

[Derian]

while it's true that a hunter with full pvp gear won't be at 1000arp, calling my entire post "irrelevant" is, sorry, bullshit.

1) many hunters wear some parts of pve gear in pvp and get to about 500-700 arp. and i never even said anything about 1400arp.

2) "you can't SS spam most of the time" uuuhmm.. that is exactly my point. you can't do that, most of the time. why can't you do that? riiight, it's because you have to move.

3) even if you don't take steady shot and higher arp ratings into consideration, autoshot would still be around 25%. in your "90%" calculation, you would only do 10% damage with autoshot AND steady shot while standing still. that's just simply not true, not even close.

Most pvp hunters actually try to avoid arp on gear, it's nowhere near as good as other stats available to us. On that, lots of pvpers consider the heroic whispering fanged skull to be better than a DBW/HC DBW, for the sole reason that arp is a terrible stat for hunters in arena. 300 arp in pvp is a lot, don't think I've ever run across a hunter with 500+. Take a look at the top hunters over on arenajunkies, absolutely none are trying to stack arp.

[Thundercougr]

I'm sorry but in today's day and age it is nearly impossible to keep this up for longer than for a total of few seconds through entire matches be they arenas, battlegrounds or even duels. There's a reason that hunters are used in burst comps almost as consistently as all specs of shaman combined. The class has the major flaw that the OP stated.

As it is right now, hunters are exceptionally similar to mages in that they have ways to shut down melee and kite them nearly infinitely. At the same time though, the lack of cast times as well as a silence on a short cool down, mini-blind and absolutely insane burst damage allows them to put a gigantic dent on the hardiest of caster classes as well.

You disagreed with a mod. Inc ban and deleted post!

[bullseyed]

Blah Blah Blah

Thoughts?

Get rid of the deadzone, hunter melee weapons, remove the CD/cost/etc on concussive shot.

*in before people bitch about saying how the deadzone isn't the same at the vanilla tbc deadzone. Old: if anyone got in to 5-8 yards from you, you automatically lose/die. New: if anyone gets within 5 yards of you, you automatically lose/die.

---------- Post added 2010-09-01 at 02:05 AM ----------

No. A hunter has the exact same problems a melee has, except in reverse. They do melee damage ONLY at range. A mage can easily jump inside a hunter, use the exact same roots that he would use on a rogue, and kill him while he is about as helpless as a snared warrior.

Assuming you ignore hunter versus melee, this is true. That's why all melee (played properly) beat all hunters (played properly) 100% of the time.

Any time a hunter beats a melee, it is because the melee failed to play properly.

---------- Post added 2010-09-01 at 02:10 AM ----------

troll troll trolly troll troll

I guess we'll see you on web-tv from the next arena tournament eh? Because the best players in the world say you're full of shit.

[Underskilled]

Perhaps I should clarify again, this post isn't about hunters being OP, it's about Blizzard having trouble balancing physical damage vs cloth armor, because hunters are the only class that deals physical damage at a range. Think frost mage vs arms warrior, the frost mage knows if the warrior gets close, he can start putting out heavy damage, because he is a physical class, and mages are a cloth wearing class. Now think Hunter vs frost mage, it is much more difficult for the frost mage, because that spec is revolved around freezing the enemy in place, getting some range on them, and casting at them, a hunter negates this idea by dealing physical damage against the mage, but at a range.

[bullseyed]

EDIT: Folks, hunters are just not that OP. They're average, and have their own advantages and disadvantages.

The facts say differently. The facts say that hunters are overwhelmingly underpowered, at the point of being brokenly bad in PvP.

The only "worse" class is DKs and that is only because they lack a MS. If they were given a reliable MS, they would become one of the most represented classes.

---------- Post added 2010-09-01 at 02:21 AM ----------

Perhaps I should clarify again, this post isn't about hunters being OP.

I would hope not, since statically they are the worst class in PvP.

---------- Post added 2010-09-01 at 02:22 AM ----------

Now think Hunter vs frost mage, it is much more difficult for the frost mage, because that spec is revolved around freezing the enemy in place, getting some range on them, and casting at them, a hunter negates this idea by dealing physical damage against the mage, but at a range.

No... hunter versus frost mage begins with the frost mage shatter-stunning the hunter, and ends with the hunter dying 2-3 globals later.

[flame]

LoL... right.

And how does the mage freezes the hunter again? By your logic, if the hunter is dead after 2-3 globals, just deterrance/silence/wtv before the stun, we can't freeze on the fly without using pet freeze. Even so, there is something called trinket, you know?

[bullseyed]

LoL... right.

And how does the mage freezes the hunter again? By your logic, if the hunter is dead after 2-3 globals, just deterrance/silence/wtv before the stun, we can't freeze on the fly without using pet freeze. Even so, there is something called trinket, you know?

And hunters can't just silence on the fly without using Silence Shot. So you're saying the only way for a hunter to lose to a mage is if the mage doesn't use its abilities?

[Rukah]

90%??

and you really play a hunter? have you ever looked at recount or something the like?
my mm hunter (~1000arp) does about 28-30% wich autoshot alone, and about 20-25% with steady shot (piercing shots from steady included).
and while it's true that hunter has a high damage while moving, compared to other classes (autoshot can be done while moving, if you stand still for ~25% of the time), it's nowhere near 90%.

and like someone mentioned already, focus and casted aimed shot will even decrease the movement damage further, compared to standing still. or, depending on how aspect of the fox will work out, it may be about the same.

Sorry, next time (like blue posts) I need to stress that they are not exct numbers - What I mean is, hunters can deal a large portion of burst DMG whilst moving -domt take it too literal next time

[Sy]

Sorry, next time (like blue posts) I need to stress that they are not exct numbers - What I mean is, hunters can deal a large portion of burst DMG whilst moving -domt take it too literal next time

if you mean "a large portion" and not "90%", you should maybe say "a large portion" and not "90%". it's not that hard :P
and i think you're wrong anyway. neither is the hunter "OP", nor is what you said the main reason for balancing issues of the class (there are other caster who can do that too).

[flame]

And hunters can't just silence on the fly without using Silence Shot. So you're saying the only way for a hunter to lose to a mage is if the mage doesn't use its abilities?

I can say the same. If a hunter uses his abilities, he can shut down the mage. Silence shot CD > Pet CD (or Freeze CD). Don't forget LoS. HUnters can unload what they need and go LoS and wait for cooldowns. Mage's cooldowns are pretty much Buffs that are useless if the target gets LoS. Icy Veins, Pet, etc.

[bigjenk]

I play a Hunter and I think:

-Hunters deal too much burst dmg
-Hunters can deal 90% of their burst dmg whilst moving

There lies some of your problems. Granted if they changed this I would be a little sad, but still these are the main "OP" issues with the class

There is a tradeoff though as they only do burst damage to rogues and cloth really. 1500 chimera shots on holy pallies are so op.

---------- Post added 2010-09-01 at 03:16 PM ----------

The reason they are imbalanced is they are so strong against some classes but worthless against others that can completely mitigate all there damage. Yay i finally got range after 2 charges and an intercept on this warrior get ready to unload burst, jk s and b shield block abilities hitting for less than 500...

---------- Post added 2010-09-01 at 03:19 PM ----------

As where against a mage you blow them up in 2 globals with good crits and trinket proc.

[Herecius]

What i meant is that in Live Hunters can just unload everything to their target in a couple of seconds, from range and pretty much with imunity to disarm (range, hello?). Couple that with very high white damage, a silence or a stun, Feign death and you're pretty much looking at the best burst class of the game.

Feign death is the weakest excuse for a 'defensive ability' in the game, don't know what you're talking about there. Hunters are also perfectly vulnerable to any of the myriad of ranged stuns, disarms, and whatever else is out there. Psychic scream is one example, there's countless others.

snaring, what pets? Mirror images are hardly pets, they die in 2 seconds and pretty much useless with a good nameplate addon (it can recognize the true mage- i won't say wich addon ofc)
Survivability of warlock pets deppend greatly on the usage of them. Some are defensively weaker than others, etc etc
DK have only one pet choice, and while having CoI and DGrip, DKs are a melee class. You DON'T need MORE CC.

'What pets'? We're talking about mages, right? Water elemental? And do you really think that warlock pets are as easy to kill as a hunter pet? Not to mention warlocks have the ability to bring their pets back VERY quickly, unlike a hunter. For any spec besides BM, hunter pet damage is negligible at best, usually only used to keep somebody in combat. I'm not complaining about the state of hunter pets, but they are hardly as powerful as you seem to think.

Nearly as hard, deppends on shatter. Currently, Dispell > all and in Cata, shatter will be either harder to pull, or not as important. Outside of shatter, uhm no, not as hard hitting.
You're forgeting one major advantage Hunters have over casters: Instants with physical damage. You can't be silenced. You can't be Disarmed at range (at least not by 9/10 classes and 29/30 specs). Pretty much all Mage's "nukes" have cast time, and you can pretty much negate them with disengage out of range, Deterrance, Feign Death, Silencing Shot. Do i need to continue?

Can't be disarmed at range, but can be stunned, CCed, anything, just like every other class.
All four of the abilities you named, especially deterrence, have fairly significant cooldowns. Again, I'm not complaining about my class and trying to counter your 'hunters are OP' argument with a 'hunters are weaksauce' argument, I'm just trying to point out they aren't the hyper-powered destructo-trains you seem to think they are. It's all in how you play.

We're not saying WoW is unbalanced because hunters don't play the same as other classes. They are, however, like no other class. Every other class you can pretty much compare with another by saying they're "distant cousins" (mage-lock). No Matter how you try, you can't find a class similar to hunters. You just can't.

GOOD. That's the POINT. And really, mages and locks are only 'distant cousins' in that they are both a type of magic-using caster. The similarities END THERE. They are no more 'similar' than the fact that DKs and Paladins both use melee weapons makes them similar. The fact that hunters require a different sort of strategy to take down and/or deal with than other classes does not make them OP or unbalanced, it makes them different, which is the whole point. I have a feeling that nothing would make a blue poster happier than to read 'hunters are similar to no other classes.'

If they were truly as OP as you seem to believe, then every single arena comp would want them. The truth is, hunter PvP representation is average; it's on par with most other classes. Like I said before, OP and utterly game-balance-destroying was 3.0 Death Knights, where no class had any way of effectively dealing with them and could be utterly destroyed by them. Hunters are not game-balance-destroying.

EDIT: One last thing. Stop harping about the lack of being able to disarm a hunter from range. If you're that stubborn about disarming a hunter from range, there's more than one way to do it; one is priests, another is having ANOTHER hunter disarm them, another is having a rogue, or a warrior get in close (very easy for both of those classes) and disarm them.

[Chrysia]

I would like to point out that several people have claimed that the hunter are OP because they do high PHYSICAL burst at range, which is completely false. Let's look at our burst attacks at range:

Chimera Shot = Nature Damage
Aimed Shot = Physical Damage
Arcane Shot (used on the move) = Arcane Damage
Explosive Shot = Fire Damage

Look at that, 3/4 of our strong burst attacks useable on the move deal magic damage, just like every other ranged class.

[Orangetai420]

Hunters no longer have a 'deadzone'. The deadzone was back when hunters couldn't melee or use their ranged attacks between 5-8 yards.

[Herecius]

I would like to point out that several people have claimed that the hunter are OP because they do high PHYSICAL burst at range, which is completely false. Let's look at our burst attacks at range:

Chimera Shot = Nature Damage
Aimed Shot = Physical Damage
Arcane Shot (used on the move) = Arcane Damage
Explosive Shot = Fire Damage

Look at that, 3/4 of our strong burst attacks useable on the move deal magic damage, just like every other ranged class.

Chimera Shot is only partially nature damage, and only when used in conjunction with serpent sting.
edit: Also, Explosive Shot and Arcane Shot share a CD. Not really the point you were making, but worth noting, so they can't be used for burst together.

[Fraza]

Now, lets start up things by thinking about hunters. Hunters are sort of the exception in pvp, they are a ranged class, but deal physical damage. Now obviously this is normal, but it can raise some problems.

...

Unfortunately Blizzard sort of drew themselves into a corner for this, because they made hunters to adaptable to any problems at hand. They can nerf their physical damage, but survival hunters deal most of their damage through magical effects. They could nerf some of their magical damage, but then Beast Mastery can still tear through people.

I assume in cataclysm, with burst being nerfed and health pools being greatly increased, things will be at bit better. However hunters will still be "Melee damage at a range" which will make balancing melee damage still troubling.

In conclusion, I think Blizzards only decision may be to make melee damage vs cloth armor and range damage vs cloth armor be on entirely different levels. The idea that hunters can deal the same type of damage that, say a warrior or rogue can, but at 40 yards away, makes it very hard to balance melee damage, against cloth levels of armor.

You contradicted yourself. Your main problem with the hunter class was that we can deal physical damage at range. This only really applies to MM hunters. You pointed out that nerfing physical damage isn't enough since SV deals mostly magical damage. But your problem wasn't ranged magical damage, it was ranged physical damage! How does a SV hunter differ from a mage in that respect? If balancing the game was a problem because of ranged physical, SV hunters shouldn't even be a part of the problem. Neither should BM hunters, since they're 50% melee physical (not a problem), 25% ranged magical (not a problem) and 25% ranged physical.

Considering all this, it seems to me you're QQing over hunters in general. Do not forget we have limitations of our own. A 5yd melee deadzone (which it really is, we can do very little in melee and even this will be gone come cataclysm), no self-healing at all, no useful protective cooldowns. We get a neato focus system for cataclysm, which nerfs our burst and gets us casting a lot more. By being part melee part caster get the worst of both worlds. We get cast times for some of our abilities (like casters), we get to manage a resource bar (like melee), we have cooldowns on our abilities (like casters), we have a zone where we can do nothing (like melee, except reversed). Not to mention the clusterfuck of abilities to manage to play successfully.