Gear resets killed WOTLK

[Kenai]

Good tanks are notoriously hard to find, and because of that, there's a lot of not-so-good tanks that tend to be whiny little self-entitled pricks and leave guilds at the drop of a hat because they are in demand, usually taking some more sycophantic members with them, hoping to ride their coattails to more loot.

I don't really understand how handing out tier gear like candy on Halloween fixes that particular problem. Sure there's a larger pool of people with semi-appropriate gear, but that doesn't make them good or at all capable of being MT.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Tanks have to learn what to do before they can be good, just like everyone else. In addition, there's almost no incentive to leveling to 80 as a tank (or healer), because it is far more efficent 95% of the time to be in a dps style spec when soloing quests and such, trying to work on it before 80 means giving up leveling progress for gear that needs to be replaced almost immediately.

Complaining about handing a tank-to-be 200 level gear in 5 mans and 251 gear from frosts after a lot of grinding is kind of laughable to me, when in reality all it's doing is bypassing a few additional timesinks. The alternative in the past was to just carry people through and/or do gold dkp runs, which have been around a lot longer and fufill the same basic principle, except the 5 man person isn't paying gold for loot or taking up a raid spot.

[Smoopie]

WOTLK was fine. If you did content when it was new, and did the hardmodes raiding was a challenge.

Killing heroic bosses with 30% is not doing content when it was new. Killing togc with icc gear is not new. Killing yogg zero for the first time with toc gear is not the challenge.

Other than naxx this expansion has been a lot of fun as a raider, up to about 6 months ago.

[huth]

Exactly. What happened to a challenge? Seems to have disappeared from the MMO genre, sadly.

We finally managed to down LK25HM this thursday after about 4 months of tries. We are apparently the 430th raid worldwide to do so. Which still places us in the top 1%.

The challenge is there, but you have to consciously decide to take it on.

Getting gear in WoW was never hard, and mainly based on time invested.

And LKHM drops are Infinity+1 weapons... best available, but also useless, since there is nothing you actually need them for.

[Doctuh]

Here's a real-world comparison. When a new fashion season comes out, you can buy a new fancy pair of jeans for 200$. However, in a few months' time, there will be another season and you will be able to buy the same jeans on sale for 50$. But there will be new jeans worth 200$ that you will want, And so on. Is that a "rip-off"? Does the fashion industry "not care" about its best customers? You pay the extra 150$ for wearing the clothing that is fashionable at the moment, even though you'll be able to buy the same stuff later for less.

The reward for being a skilled raider is the ability to do the highest level of content currently available. By the time all of us plebs get to that content it will already be SO last season.

[Getcleaved]

[PetersenII]

2) Old raids became pointless (outside of achievements/fun)

Stopped reading here. This is a game. Fun is the whole point. Your argument is invalid having conceded that point.

[Ithrowmagicz]

You obviously don't understand the concept of an expansion.

[roboscorcher]

It's only like that because of the WotLK system. If they didn't make it so you could quickly and easily skip all but the most current tier of content, there would actually be guilds at various stages of progression. If you, for whatever reason, had to leave the game for an extended period of time... when you came back, there would be people running that content because they have to.

Yes, but those raiding groups were rarely friends. The only reason to raid with groups on lower stages of progression is to get geared. I don't know about you, but I hate gear-obsessed raiders. Why would you want to raid with players that don't remotely care about you? Blizz is doing the endgame great justice by allowing us to raid with our friends, with our real guilds.

[TyralisUH]

So ? Did you really take 20min to write this ? We all know that , It's not a big deal

[Powerogue]

I honestly miss attunements. they made gearing up harder, but when even heroics required a very short rep grind, it weeded out so many idiots.

by the time I got attuned for Karazhan, my entire group was smart enough to handle the instance, because they had to jump some hurdles to get there.

when they finally removed the attunement req, it was still OK because the people gearing for sunwell came back to karazhan for badges, helping cancel out the fail that would've happened otherwise.

I'm hoping with the only 2 types of badges in cataclysm, the frost/triumph equivalents, people will still go back and raid nax/ulduar instead of only spam running heroics when they want their gear. (using WotLK examples because I am clueless about the raid progression in cataclysm)

[DragonFireKai]

Yes, thank god tanks can gear up for weekly raids. Except weekly raids are boring as hell because it is old content that drops frost emblems for T10 gear, once again. So they are actually forcing overgeared players to do old content, because lets be honest you are really stupid if you don't do the weekly raid wich gives 5 frost eblems wich is equal to 2,5 bosses in ICC.

You're complaining about having to do old content again? But you want to force me to spend months farming naxx, ulduar, and ToC on my alt just so I can help out my guild's second run in ICC?

Wait, so you rather run 50 heroic dungeons instead of 3 naxx, 3 ulduar and 8 toc runs?

Certainly. I can do 50 heroics in a week,even if those heroics took 30 minutes each, and were only 2 boss runs, I'd still get 200 badges in a little over a day of playtime. In reality, 50 heroics would take closer to 13 hours, and net 250-300 badges.

Assuming you could get a group that could full clear ulduar+Algalon on 10 and 25, which is an iffy proposal, you'd get 210 badges. Assuming that you had great groups, that never wiped, never had anyone go AFK, and knew the strats like the back of their hand, You'd still be spending 6 hours in naxx, 9 hours in ulduar, and 8 hours in ToC, for just under a day's playtime, and it would take a month to do that due to the raid lockouts.

so you're telling me that you'd rather spend twice as much time in game, and 4 times as much real time, to get 40 fewer badges? Care to explain?

And why in gods name do you recruit freshly dinged level 70 characters with green quest gear? Must be a great guild.

Old players come back to the game. You know they're skilled, they just need to catch up on gear.

EDIT: your example happens once in 3 years on a realm. And nowadays you can do new content with gear 3 tiers lower. There are no more gearchecks only skillchecks. That you might suck in this easy game doesn't mean everyone else has to suffer for it.

my, aren't you in the perfect guild? Pretty much every guild on my server is constantly recruiting to replace losses that occur on a monthly basis. It's the nature of the beast. Even the Light of Dawn guilds deal with it.

You don't understand that doing raids and progress is more fun than mindless aoe spamming in heroics? Doing T7 up to T9 raids doesn't mean you should gear extremely slow. I don't understand that people can't get that out of their heads. It's like OH NO RAIDING, I WILL BE STUCK HERE FOREVER AND NEVER ABLE TO JOIN MY LOVELY ICC PUGS. You do know they can change drop rates or upgrade the emblem system right? It doesn't mean we go back to Vanilla gearing process.

Dragging a bunch of annoyed people who don't want to be in that raid, but have to because they need to do it to get to the raid they actually want to be in isn't fun. It's hell. It's much happier for all involved when people can gear up to a level where they can start current content without needing to assemble a raid group.

And if Blizzard doesn't care about old content then why do they let us come back all the time? Resetting gear and farming heroics AGAIN, yay. Weekly raids with people who have no clue what Ulduar or Naxx is. But atleast after that I can run current content with some noobs who have no clue and wipe on the first boss in that instance.

When was the last time you went back to Naxx 40? Or Ony 40? You still gonna be grinding that Zandalar rep come cataclysm? Blizzard doesn't let you go there. If Blizzard really cared about keeping people in old content, they would have gone the vanilla route, and created resistance fights that required you to farm old content to get specialized gear that only drops there. If you're stuck in groups that wipe on Marrowgar, you can't blame the badge system, you have no one to blame but yourself.

I really don't understand why people can't see that doing naxx, ulduar and toc is fun. At least more than grinding heroics, wich is also old content. And especially for new players.
When I was in Karazhan I looked up to the guys in SSC/TK and I wanted to get there myself and when I was there I saw people doing MH/BT and I wanted to get there. That's progression, if you don't like progression then why are you playing a MMO?

Because fun is an relative from person to person. You had fun farming kara. That T6 geared prot pally who was only there because they owed the resto druid a favor, was bored out of his mind.

Progression is killing something new. Progression isn't farming old content. That's the opposite of progression, it's regression. You're going back to content you've already beaten. You've got your terms twisted.

---------- Post added 2010-09-10 at 08:58 PM ----------

Good tanks are notoriously hard to find, and because of that, there's a lot of not-so-good tanks that tend to be whiny little self-entitled pricks and leave guilds at the drop of a hat because they are in demand, usually taking some more sycophantic members with them, hoping to ride their coattails to more loot.

I don't really understand how handing out tier gear like candy on Halloween fixes that particular problem. Sure there's a larger pool of people with semi-appropriate gear, but that doesn't make them good or at all capable of being MT.

A larger pool of people with the appropriate gear means a larger pool of people with the appropriate skills and gear. It also means a larger pool of people with the gear, but not the skill, but knowing the difference is the job of the recruiting officers. I don't see how that's detrimental in any way. All it means is more opportunities.

[Fenixhart]

I honestly miss attunements. they made gearing up harder, but when even heroics required a very short rep grind, it weeded out so many idiots.
)

Time sinks are Not Idiot checks, And anyone implying so needs to look no farther than Shade of Aran.

[Sackman]

Time sinks are Not Idiot checks, And anyone implying so needs to look no farther than Shade of Aran.

I had an IRL friend that became the best hunter on the server in the best guild in the server, who failed Aran on his first time despite being told what not to do several times. He's one of the best players I know now and we're comparitively equal but I fortunately can tickle his ego with that one as I have not made a mistake so grandeous yet. Time sinks are not idiot checks. /Agreed. (fingers crossed he doesn't read this post lol)

That being said, with mods like DBM things are getting very easy to do, so much so you don't even need to think about what you are doing.

I honestly miss attunements. they made gearing up harder, but when even heroics required a very short rep grind, it weeded out so many idiots.

by the time I got attuned for Karazhan, my entire group was smart enough to handle the instance, because they had to jump some hurdles to get there.

when they finally removed the attunement req, it was still OK because the people gearing for sunwell came back to karazhan for badges, helping cancel out the fail that would've happened otherwise.

I'm hoping with the only 2 types of badges in cataclysm, the frost/triumph equivalents, people will still go back and raid nax/ulduar instead of only spam running heroics when they want their gear. (using WotLK examples because I am clueless about the raid progression in cataclysm)

I miss attunements in that they made it feel like you were preparing for something epic. Jumping straight into a raid is annoying in terms of lore because its just like godmoding in a way even if it is difficult. Its like "hey you mary sue your're awesome go raid this place".

Stopped reading here. This is a game. Fun is the whole point. Your argument is invalid having conceded that point.

He means for those that enjoy it. Barely anyone enjoys running old raids because for them to actually be fun for them they need to be challenging - and most of the challenge is removed in having better gear, and backwards gearing yourself is just too time consuming for it to be worth it.

Here's a real-world comparison. When a new fashion season comes out, you can buy a new fancy pair of jeans for 200$. However, in a few months' time, there will be another season and you will be able to buy the same jeans on sale for 50$. But there will be new jeans worth 200$ that you will want, And so on. Is that a "rip-off"? Does the fashion industry "not care" about its best customers? You pay the extra 150$ for wearing the clothing that is fashionable at the moment, even though you'll be able to buy the same stuff later for less.

The reward for being a skilled raider is the ability to do the highest level of content currently available. By the time all of us plebs get to that content it will already be SO last season.

New graphics cards get released approx every 6 months sometimes with a few other revised products inbetween but ultimately a faster card tends to come every 6 months from the same company. If you buy the fastest card at point A, 6 months in the future at point B a new card will be released making your card from Point A worse, you want to stay the best and want to go faster so you want the fastest card again - in the meantime the card from point A becomes cheaper - so that others can enjoy going as fast as you did 6 months ago, but they don't have to pay as much as you did.

If point A and point B are two different raids, and the graphics cards are the gear, thats your comparison. People get to be the best for an amount of time, seeing the content first is probably less on their minds than that. "You go see Avatar yet?" "Nah not yet" "NER NER I seen it before you!".

[Yazus]

Resolve? Emblem Vendors only give you tier. Every off set piece of equipment, including trinkets, relics and weapons must be obtained in other ways. Old raids? Heroics... your choiche. At that point you should either way be at least able to run the ToC of that situation

[Taiki420]

I thought Tirion and Rhonin ruined the expansion by themselves. But you got good points, buddy. Glad to read my own awesome thoughts.

Didn't Rhonin say like, 3 things the entire expansion?

Though Tirion did come off as kind of a douche, about the time of TOC.

[Deleted]

Didn't Rhonin say like, 3 things the entire expansion?

Though Tirion did come off as kind of a douche, about the time of TOC.

Around the time of ToC, Variann and Garrosh were the ones who were subscribing to Douchebags Daily News.

[Yseraboy]

The only difference between now and then is that now instead of HAVING to do older crap no one else is interested in doing in rare cases, it's now optional. OH MAH GAWD, GIVING PLAYERS OPTIONS, WHAT HORROR HAVE WE UNLEASHED?

This^^^

Most of the QQ'ing here amounts to: "I took the scenic route of progression, and so I dislike the fact that others can take the hyperspace bypass to current content/gear."

As if taking the bypass was a requirement instead of an option.

It does mean that "bads" can prance around in welfare epics, and prevent GearScore from auto-rejecting them from your PUG; but it also means skilled players who recently joined/returned to the game can enjoy "current" content without having to slog through events that are hard to get groups for.