Mediocre Ret DPS :/

[Rlyskilled]

With the exception of holy wrath ronark is right. Holy wrath has zero place in the rotation once you have 2pc t10.

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...1361#damageout

I used it twice on this fight, I don't know what crazy RNG luck you get but I do manage to have a GCD or two of downtime during a burn fight where I can throw in a holy wrath and still do okay for myself (despite being terrible for not having a thermal sapper charge for this fight ._.).

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/c...pal/1807/6/3/0

[Alenko]

It's very clear what he says, you can use it in the rotation if everything is on cooldown.
Too bad that actual raiding shows that this won;t happen

what? I use it in every fight casue there WILL be a point with everything on cd and all you got is HW

[Nikoll]

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat...1361#damageout

I used it twice on this fight, I don't know what crazy RNG luck you get but I do manage to have a GCD or two of downtime during a burn fight where I can throw in a holy wrath and still do okay for myself (despite being terrible for not having a thermal sapper charge for this fight ._.).

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/c...pal/1807/6/3/0

Taken off ej

Holy Wrath - Only effective against multiple (6+) demons/undead, you are better off using your free GCD casting DP or a SS on someone. This is as close to a mana dump skill as we have.

if u miss a ds proc, u lose dps. If at the end of the fight u don't get to cast one judge (because u used hw 2x and pushed your glbal back say .5-1second) because the boss dies while u are on gcd that's a dps loss. 6k damage per hw is weak. The chance of getting a ds that lands for 11kish plus pics a 5k or so seal (numbers being a eraving out non crit and crit to around that number) far outshines it. If in those two hw u could have used just one more ds your damage would have been greater, plus u could have proced a mote and a shadow bane stack.

[Ronark]

Actually CS > DS might be a better choice.

I've heard Bluedeep was running with CS > DS back then. I also know a pally from my realm who ranks at World Top20 at good days and he is using CS > DS.

The theory behind is that using ability on reliable short cooldown will create less clashes in the long run and less idle time when everything on cooldown.
Extra bonus is that you will have an easier time keeping up libram stacks with CS > DS.

It's the high-end of min/maxing and it might be quite a different deal with multiple targets around, but that's what I was able to gather so far.

It really depends on how much RNG favors you- You'll have a better eCD on DS if it procs more on a particular fight, meaning that you would have done more DPS with DS > CS. Now, the converse being that it doesn't proc a lot means that you should have stayed with CS > DS.

Since it is all RNG, it is all fight specific, and you'll have no way of knowing until after the fight and you look at logs which you should have used first- Of course, this changes for every fight.

[Rlyskilled]

Taken off ej if u miss a ds proc, u lose dps. If at the end of the fight u don't get to cast one judge (because u used hw 2x and pushed your glbal back say .5-1second) because the boss dies while u are on gcd that's a dps loss. 6k damage per hw is weak. The chance of getting a ds that lands for 11kish plus pics a 5k or so seal (numbers being a eraving out non crit and crit to around that number) far outshines it. If in those two hw u could have used just one more ds your damage would have been greater, plus u could have proced a mote and a shadow bane stack.

There are flaws in your argument.
1. Your EJ quote favors using a non-damaging ability over a damaging ability while you argue overall damage done.
2. Divine Storm procs can be anticipated by using a swing timer. They don't just reset out of the blue, melee swings are the only action that triggers your 2pc.

I could have gotten a DS proc if I weren't paying attention. But I knew I wouldn't due to simply watching the swing timer, therefore no procs were missed. Both HWs were used on completely free GCDs and I didn't "waste" any DS procs by using it. Sure. I could've waited and once the fight was said and done I'd have done 12k less damage to the boss but you could say the same for using DP or SS and missing the same DS proc and doing zero damage in the meantime. You speak as if EVERY open GCD inevitably ends in a DS proc no matter where your swing timer stands.

It's not like I have anything better to do on DBS at 30% I can afford to glance at my swing timer, seeing as that's the only thing that procs a DS reset and base that on whether or not I should holy wrath or not. Granted, there are many fights where I never holy wrath. But when the open GCD is there and I'm sure DS won't reset as I press HW I'm going to use it.

I guess the point of all this is my opinion is that there's nothing inherently wrong with using HW when you know you have the open GCD. If you're so lucky that you never, ever have these, great. You have better RNG luck than I do. But if you just aren't paying attention to or taking advantage of the occasional free GCD, that's something else entirely.

And about CS>DS DS>CS I think Badpaladin explained it well enough a long time ago.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/743864-CS-over-DS

I wouldn't bother reading past the second post, it's got a lot of cattiness going on but it's nice to see Kisko realized his mistake and is giving out proper information now although it's polite to cite your information or give a little more information on why exactly CS is better than DS in some situations.

[thegoodrogue]

So basically CS is almost equal to or a little better than DS except on cleave-able targets? Also, basically press buttons faster and with gear my DPS should improve?

[Deleted]

i don't even have HW on my bar anymore. might have something to do with the fact that i can't manage to add a 3rd bar to LUI3 and as such are pretty barspace locked.

[Ronark]

i don't even have HW on my bar anymore. might have something to do with the fact that i can't manage to add a 3rd bar to LUI3 and as such are pretty barspace locked.

Its useful for snap-AE in ICC, as a filler, and as a last-resort stun on Lich King.

[Rlyskilled]

Please refer me to better information regarding CS vs DS than Badpaladin's first post on that thread. His first post is very informative and I really don't see any bullshit math.
It also seems like you're the first one to start flaming in that thread.

[Rlyskilled]

I merely told him that ^^ I don't flame people.

You are indeed bad.

If someone wants numbers, they sift through EJ. Someone asking why or if CS is better than DS on MMOC is probably looking for something easy to read. I'm sure in December when his ban lifts he'll be happy to PM you his numbers.

[DaGhostDS]

If someone wants numbers, they sift through EJ. Someone asking why or if CS is better than DS on MMOC is probably looking for something easy to read. I'm sure in December when his ban lifts he'll be happy to PM you his numbers.

*cough* we wont need that at 85 *cough*

[thegoodrogue]

So, besides all the bickering it seems if you need mana and if you have a GCD use DP, if you dont need mana holy wrath.

Any other input towards the first post? All I know is that I need to justify my spot besides being overly aware and bringing replenishment/blessings/ap debuff.

[Kisko]

And about CS>DS DS>CS I think Badpaladin explained it well enough a long time ago.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/743864-CS-over-DS

I wouldn't bother reading past the second post, it's got a lot of cattiness going on but it's nice to see Kisko realized his mistake and is giving out proper information now although it's polite to cite your information or give a little more information on why exactly CS is better than DS in some situations.

To be honest it has nothing to do with Badpaladin or his "explanation", because he really didn't had one. That's why I didn't cite. And mistake, wut? As far as I remember I just asked a question at that thread, I never made any statements.

There was discussion about that at some guild forum (I don't have a link now, but I can dig it again if you want) and people ended up going to Iiris with that. The idea was that since seal is our main damage source and both CS and DS can trigger seal, but in most cases CS still have shorter CD. So, it's a bit more dps to prioritize CS, because seal damage from more frequent CS uses will make up for less dps of CS itself. Sort of makes sense.

I also had a chance to talk to one of the world best rets lately and he also investigated that issue and ended up with CS > DS.
Still, I'm not saying that it's ultimately better in every case, having more DS uses at multi-target fight might win you the meters race.

Pardon for offtopic.

[Rlyskilled]

I know, Kisko, that you agree with us in the CS>DS debate. I meant no harm in my post to Kangodo at you. I'm happy to see how far you've come on these forums since my first impression of you. Like I said, it's nice to see that you have changed your mind on the topic. The following post is to feed Kangodo's need for numbers.

The idea that seems to escape Kangodo is that when you cast DS over CS, CS remains on cooldown (obviously this is vice/versa), and that's not good for any ability. Let's take a 5 minute fight, or 300 seconds and model casting CS only, versus casting DS only, over the course of those 300 seconds. While it isn't what you'd be doing in a raid, it provides some numbers for us to work with. I think we can all agree that with 2pc t10 DS's average eCD is around 6 seconds, give or take depending on RNG. But for science's sake let's say 6 seconds.

CS: (300s/4s)= 75 casts
DS(assuming 6s eCD): (300s/6s) = 50 casts

Assuming this is at 5 stacks of Vengeance/Corruption --

CS: 133%wdmg * 75 = 9975wdmg
DS: 153%wdmg * 50 = 7650wdmg

To equalize, you'd need to cast DS 65 times in 300s(it's a non-integer, but you can't exactly cast something 65.1 times). Or in other words, for DS to deal more overall damage than CS, you'd need a 4.54s effective cooldown on Divine Storm... which isn't exactly a numerous thing to find.

Obviously over a fight you're going to be juggling a lot more than just CS and DS, so the discrepancy between the two values will narrow severely to the point where RNG over multiple fights will blanket any DPS increase or loss, and as such you're really talking about something insignificant in the long run. DS's eCD will increase or decrease by small variations, and CS's eCD will jump up to around 5 seconds(with shorter fight lengths, slightly less). The overall damage of the two abilities will be fairly close, and DS will only jump up if you get some really, really good RNG (so good that it won't normalize to ~6 seconds over the fight duration which is pretty rare except for those ridiculous fight lengths such as 1:40 H:Marrowgar's, etc). So the question is, do you want to rely on RNG to be "good" and pray it isn't "bad"? Because that's what you're doing when you choose DS > CS. Exemplar put it well when using modeling as an argument:

If you're currently seeing 50 DPS gains in a model (Rawr/spreadsheet) with J > DS > CS, change the seed, re-run your data, and you could see a 50 DPS loss, no gain/loss, or even jump higher to a 100 DPS gain.

(Source)

What's the funny part? This doesn't even really matter. If you were to try and measure this every week to see if you can notice a particular trend favoring one or the other, you'd fail to find anything statistically significant because the "blanket" RNG provides will cover up this difference and more.

[Kisko]

Good info here Rlyskilled and nice link to Exemplar post. I agree.

For what it's worth Rawr tells me that (CS > DS) is better than (DS > CS) by 10-15 dps on any fight lengths I tried, and that's exactly kind of question sim should be able to answer. We aren't talking about lucky cases here, but what's better on average.

Can't help but notice that both EJ and MMO Ret Guide state DS > CS as optimal rotation, may be it's time to make some addendum. Up to Ronark I guess.

[Ronark]

Where are your 133% and 153% numbers coming from?

I get 152.637% for DS, but only 119.6815% for CS. Even so, given these:

120% * 75 = 9000 weapon dmg
153% * 50 = 7650 weapon dmg

For what it's worth Rawr tells me that (CS > DS) is better than (DS > CS) by 10-15 dps on any fight lengths I tried, and that's exactly kind of question sim should be able to answer. We aren't talking about lucky cases here, but what's better on average.

Can't help but notice that both EJ and MMO Ret Guide state DS > CS as optimal rotation, may be it's time to make some addendum. Up to Ronark I guess.

I'd believe the reason your put DS ahead of CS is to low it's effective CD to ~6 seconds- You'd have to compare 2 identical fights, one with CS first and 1 with DS first, and compare the eCD of DS.

In any case, it won't matter in 6 weeks- But it would be nice to know.

[Rlyskilled]

Explain how you only have 119% weapon damage with CS.

Are you using the baseline 75% CS weapon damage or the talented 93%?

[Ronark]

Explain how you only have 119% weapon damage with CS.

Are you using the baseline 75% CS weapon damage or the talented 93%?

0.75 * 1.1 (Art of War) * 1.15 (SoB) * 1.06 (2hM) * 1.06 (Crusade) * 1.09 (Vengeance) * 1.03 (Sanc Ret) = 1.196815

---------- Post added 2010-09-12 at 07:08 PM ----------

But you are saying that overall CS will have done more damage than DS, even while one CS does less damage than one DS? That sounds okay! But almost every log I see puts DS above CS in damage done.
If you both have CS and DS off cooldown, why wouldn't it be better to use the attack that does more damage itself?

That are questions I haven't seen answered yet.

Its all about eCD.

Less cooldown = more uses = more total damage.

[Rlyskilled]

If you both have CS and DS off cooldown, why wouldn't it be better to use the attack that does more damage itself?

Ret paladins are not based on a damage-per-cast rotation.

And I just explained why, despite DS doing more damage per cast, CS is better to use over it due to its much shorter cooldown. Dear god, did you read a word I typed?

But almost every log I see puts DS above CS in damage done.

What were the eCDs of the logs you've seen where DS inches out over CS? Were there cleavable adds in the fight, ie Marrowgar, Saurfang, Rotface? Were they generally short fights (less than the 300s example I gave to you)? Let me quote my last post that I'm not sure you really read carefully.

Obviously over a fight you're going to be juggling a lot more than just CS and DS, so the discrepancy between the two values will narrow severely to the point where RNG over multiple fights will blanket any DPS increase or loss, and as such you're really talking about something insignificant in the long run. DS's eCD will increase or decrease by small variations, and CS's eCD will jump up to around 5 seconds(with shorter fight lengths, slightly less). The overall damage of the two abilities will be fairly close, and DS will only jump up if you get some really, really good RNG (so good that it won't normalize to ~6 seconds over the fight duration which is pretty rare except for those ridiculous fight lengths such as 1:40 H:Marrowgar's, etc).

@Ronark: CS was calculated wrong on my end, you're right. It still outshines DS, it just takes 6 less DS's to catch up to CS.

[Ronark]

Ret paladins are not based on a damage-per-cast rotation.

Exactly- Its about what does more damage in the long run.