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  1. #141
    Mechagnome Lihonessa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcio View Post
    No offense, but if you think the only thing that makes the Shaman stand out was its ability to be guaranteed a raid spot (skilled or not) because of an oft-considered important buff to the raid itself, then I'm afraid you don't deserve the buff, either.
    Not to say there aren't really good Shaman out there. I'm just saying that I would rather be put on standby because we had a Shaman that was, for all intents and purposes, better than me than being put on standby because a Shaman is required with lust in order to clear the boss we're at currently. That is a situation we all would rather be in, I think.

    In the end, Hunters could very well never need to use Blust. I very rarely end up in a group that doesn't have either a Mage or a Shaman, but if I do, then I would gladly switch my spec to BM with a corehound in order to give the raid that buff. The only time we gain a benefit from it is when a Shaman or Mage is not in the group. If they are, then we're either using a different pet or using a different spec entirely, because there would be no point.

    Tying the ability into a pet that requires a spec to use is more like saying "Hey, we're backup lust in case there is no Mage or Shaman in the group currently." It's not a game-breaker, and I can assure you that the Corehound will not be our top DPS pet. Not by a long shot. Even as BM, if we have a choice, we will probably still go with a Devilsaur if we don't need to provide lust, if the current game is any indication.
    I have a few things to say about this.
    Like I said before, Bloodlust is a class-defining ability. It is one of the very few abilities of the Shaman that are currently still unique. In fact, almost all of our totems are overwritten by other skills from other classes; in some cases, this causes Bloodlust to be the only unique thing we bring to a raid! Because of this fact, I'm certain that if Blizzard continues with giving their unique abilities to other classes, they will become an obsolete class. And I don't want to have to reroll to a class I don't like, just so I can actually play the game!
    Let me give an example. If a raid group were to pick an evenly geared Shaman or Mage for a raid, who would they pick? Naturally, they would pick the Mage; Not only do they have their unique raid-wide buff, they also deal more damage then Shamans with equal gear level! As for PvP, the same applies - Shamans have very few ways of getting away, while Mages have many. Now, let's include the Hunter on this list: While I believe that they have about the same damage output as Shamans in equal gear, in PvP they have a lot more survivability due to their talents and playstyle, which still makes them preferred over a Shaman in that aspect!

    Quote Originally Posted by Archer View Post
    Make the stand all you want, it's not your game and if you don't like it simple solution for ya: QUIT!
    Should hunters have made the "stand" when you totem dropping freaks were given ghost wolves?

    I for one welcome the change, no longer does my raid have to carry bad shamans just for BL, or find a retarded priest for fort. Now we can pick and choose.
    The same applies for you, Archer. And no, Hunters don't have to make a stand about Ghost Wolves. Why? Only Enhancement spec gets them, they only last for a number of seconds, they aren't controllable by the player itself, and they have a long cooldown! Does your pet have all that? I don't think so. Ghost Wolves are of no competition to Hunter pets at all.
    As for quitting, I still like this game. That is why I pay money for it. Yet for that money I also expect to get something in return, instead of my preferred class being made obsolete by stupid and unneccesary changes like this! And like I said before, I do not want to reroll to a class I don't like just so I can actually play the game.
    With all due respect, making that comment practically showed how unexperienced you are with playing a Shaman. Believe me when I say this; In our current state of affairs, Bloodlust is a neccesary spell for Shamans. Giving it to other, more powerful classes without getting anything new and unique in return it just going to ruin the class... I'd easily compare it to removing Hunter pets from the game, It would just make them worthless!

  2. #142
    yes it's terrible that other classes have tremor totem....wait what..

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Lihonessa View Post
    I have a few things to say about this.
    Like I said before, Bloodlust is a class-defining ability. It is one of the very few abilities of the Shaman that are currently still unique. In fact, almost all of our totems are overwritten by other skills from other classes; in some cases, this causes Bloodlust to be the only unique thing we bring to a raid! Because of this fact, I'm certain that if Blizzard continues with giving their unique abilities to other classes, they will become an obsolete class. And I don't want to have to reroll to a class I don't like, just so I can actually play the game!
    Let me give an example. If a raid group were to pick an evenly geared Shaman or Mage for a raid, who would they pick? Naturally, they would pick the Mage; Not only do they have their unique raid-wide buff, they also deal more damage then Shamans with equal gear level! As for PvP, the same applies - Shamans have very few ways of getting away, while Mages have many. Now, let's include the Hunter on this list: While I believe that they have about the same damage output as Shamans in equal gear, in PvP they have a lot more survivability due to their talents and playstyle, which still makes them preferred over a Shaman in that aspect!
    And I say again, if the only thing that makes the Shaman stand out is a spell that, for some fights, is required in order to even clear the fight, then there's a really big problem here.

    A class should be able to feel unique, but they shouldn't feel like they should get special treatment because of that one thing that only they can bring, and that's really how the Shaman class is now. If I'm vying for a spot against a Shaman, why should they take me when the Shaman has a buff that is required for some fights to succeed? No matter how much DPS I do over the Shaman, I would be cut for him, because his buff benefits every single raid member. It's completely unfair, and something that's been said since Wrath beta with the advent of "bring the player, not the class."

    It's not fair to other players that the Shaman would always edge out on them not due to skill, but due to utility. It's a completely terrible design.

    To go on your example, let's also put up the example that the Shaman is a good player that has a cool attitude and disposition and pulls out really good numbers, while the pure DPS Mage has a very lousy attitude and complains about every single detail from other players while assuming that they cannot make any mistakes at all, but also pulls good numbers. In this example, I would honestly pick the Shaman.
    On the flipside, let's say that my raid group consists of 24 really great DPS, but we have to have a Shaman who refuses to play by the rules, continuously AFKs, and his only real benefit to the raid is the unleashing of lust after much hassling. In this current raid environment, the raid leader will either try and find another Shaman to replace him, or just deal with him with the logic that he's bringing a buff that is needed for the encounter at hand. In the Cataclysm environment, the Shaman in my example can no longer act like that and not expect a real punishment in the form of not being able to raid half-heartedly.

    Of course, these examples are two extremes. There are going to be cases where a Mage and a Shaman, both with good attitudes and good gear, will be vying for a spot in a raid and one of them will be cut. It's just how things work, and it'll be a tough decision for a lot of people, too.

    Look, I understand your plea. I get that you think it'll create a problem in the natural balance of the game. But trust me when I say that, in all intents and purposes, it's good for the game. Blizzard, I would hope, is not doing this change to harm Shamans, but to help the raid groups on a whole. And because of the lost must-have-in-raid utility, it creates a drive to them to make sure that Shamans stay competitive in both healing and DPS. Trust me, if you really do love the class, then you can remain that class. If you're a strong player and your attitude is sound for your raid leader, then you will get your spot. It creates a drive of excellence to know that you must perform to your class's best to be given that raid spot. It makes you appreciate that class more.

  4. #144
    Bloodsail Admiral Anium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lihonessa View Post
    When I read that Mages would get their own Bloodlust, I grumbled, but I didn't protest.
    Now, however, I feel that a huge border is being crossed.



    WHAT
    THE
    HELL?!


    What on earth is wrong with Blizzard?! Hunters do not need a Bloodlust. Hell, they don't deserve one!
    Bloodlust is one of the very few remaining key spells left which make the Shaman stand out, and I am strongly against handing it out to all the other classes out there. Sure, Shamans were considered OP once, but this was back in Vanilla when Frost Shock was still strong! We've passed that point, yet still they continue to take abuse over, and over, and over...

    And for you sceptics who say that Shamans still have totems, who cares if they do? The buffs they give are only mediocre, we only really use a handful of the thouzands of totems we recieve, and they die in one hit.

    While I (reluctantly) allow Mages to have Bloodlust, I'm going to have to make a stand here.
    SAY NO TO HUNTERS WITH BLOODLUST!!!

    You're a fool.

  5. #145
    So what do people think of Archeology? Reading the description it looks very complicated, which surprises me because I figured Blizz has been making this game more accessible to the casual player. I can see a lot of new people to this game taking up this prof and dumping it pretty quickly. I'm still not even sure if it's a gathering or crafting prof. Are people in Beta doing this? Is it worth it?

  6. #146
    I knew hunters were going to be overpowered in Cataclysm because of the overhaul, but this is just ridiculous and going way too far.

  7. #147
    Oh and Goblin mounts are also in as well(In goblin slums.)=) btw Hello everyone.I just Registered. =)

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by informedcitizenry View Post
    So what do people think of Archeology? Reading the description it looks very complicated, which surprises me because I figured Blizz has been making this game more accessible to the casual player. I can see a lot of new people to this game taking up this prof and dumping it pretty quickly. I'm still not even sure if it's a gathering or crafting prof. Are people in Beta doing this? Is it worth it?
    It's easier than fishing and currently rewards pretty much nothing, is way too slow to level and is plagued with bugs. Which is fine since it's only recently added and will be changed loads before release.

    I have a few things to say about this.
    Like I said before, Bloodlust is a class-defining ability. It is one of the very few abilities of the Shaman that are currently still unique. In fact, almost all of our totems are overwritten by other skills from other classes; in some cases, this causes Bloodlust to be the only unique thing we bring to a raid! Because of this fact, I'm certain that if Blizzard continues with giving their unique abilities to other classes, they will become an obsolete class. And I don't want to have to reroll to a class I don't like, just so I can actually play the game!
    Let me give an example. If a raid group were to pick an evenly geared Shaman or Mage for a raid, who would they pick? Naturally, they would pick the Mage; Not only do they have their unique raid-wide buff, they also deal more damage then Shamans with equal gear level! As for PvP, the same applies - Shamans have very few ways of getting away, while Mages have many. Now, let's include the Hunter on this list: While I believe that they have about the same damage output as Shamans in equal gear, in PvP they have a lot more survivability due to their talents and playstyle, which still makes them preferred over a Shaman in that aspect!
    There are no class-defining "raid buffs" anymore.
    Not even mages will have a unique buff anymore, you can be certain another class will have it. (And scrolls will have it too.)

    All classes are meant to be obsolete, as in you'll still be able to raid properly if class X doesn't show up. X can be any of the 10 classes, why the hell do you think shamans should be different?

    As for pvp, seriously? There isn't even any 83+ gear available, but you sir know exactly how classes will be at level 85 pvp don't you? CLASS BALANCING HASN'T EVEN STARTED YET.

  9. #149
    how long does dark transformation last?

  10. #150
    Absolutely terrible change with giving out Bloodlust and basically the ability to hand out any buff at will via hunter pets. By far the most stupid thing Blizzard has done to date. They are really trying to kill this game off. They gave it to yet another class that has a ton of utility already. This could have been seen coming though since they gave it out to mages though, further diluting this game into the abyss of homogenization-hell.

    Honestly, these changes have gone too far. When is this dumbing down, watering down, homogenization process going to come to an end? It's like Blizzard is actually TRYING to kill off their game with their sheer laziness now.

    This can be blamed on all the people who cheered Blizzard on each time they copy and pasted item models, abilities, and effects. Only people who don't see this as a bad thing are hunters, those who are going to make a hunter their main now, and the mobs of people that still say Blizzard can do no wrong.

    Seriously. Make classes feel unique from each other again. Make there be a reason you chose said class, and stuck with it. Not diluting it into basically, "Tank, DPS, Healer" classes. These are some really telling moves to the game.

  11. #151
    High Overlord booh1992's Avatar
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    This is pretty cool, we should be happy that we don't have to corner a shaman to get lust/hero in a raid in cata.
    I like the changes, their pretty cool; as well it makes choosing a pet for raids much better, huntards would look at you in a raid if you had any other pet than a wolf on my server v.v
    Plus the ghoul changes are sooo epiicccc!

  12. #152
    :-) i am happy with hunt changes ...well deserved
    p.s. pvp with core hound is a MUST !

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiro View Post
    Absolutely terrible change with giving out Bloodlust and basically the ability to hand out any buff at will via hunter pets. By far the most stupid thing Blizzard has done to date. They are really trying to kill this game off. They gave it to yet another class that has a ton of utility already. This could have been seen coming though since they gave it out to mages though, further diluting this game into the abyss of homogenization-hell.

    Honestly, these changes have gone too far. When is this dumbing down, watering down, homogenization process going to come to an end? It's like Blizzard is actually TRYING to kill off their game with their sheer laziness now.

    This can be blamed on all the people who cheered Blizzard on each time they copy and pasted item models, abilities, and effects. Only people who don't see this as a bad thing are hunters, those who are going to make a hunter their main now, and the mobs of people that still say Blizzard can do no wrong.

    Seriously. Make classes feel unique from each other again. Make there be a reason you chose said class, and stuck with it. Not diluting it into basically, "Tank, DPS, Healer" classes. These are some really telling moves to the game.
    Personally I think people like you are what's wrong with this game.
    How can you honestly say a buff, one stupid long cooldown button, is what defines your class?

    Buffs are there to give you the feeling being in a group/raid makes you more powerful, let class uniqueness be based on rotations, lore and graphics rather than one fucking button.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiro View Post
    Absolutely terrible change with giving out Bloodlust and basically the ability to hand out any buff at will via hunter pets. By far the most stupid thing Blizzard has done to date. They are really trying to kill this game off. They gave it to yet another class that has a ton of utility already. This could have been seen coming though since they gave it out to mages though, further diluting this game into the abyss of homogenization-hell.

    Honestly, these changes have gone too far. When is this dumbing down, watering down, homogenization process going to come to an end? It's like Blizzard is actually TRYING to kill off their game with their sheer laziness now.

    This can be blamed on all the people who cheered Blizzard on each time they copy and pasted item models, abilities, and effects. Only people who don't see this as a bad thing are hunters, those who are going to make a hunter their main now, and the mobs of people that still say Blizzard can do no wrong.

    Seriously. Make classes feel unique from each other again. Make there be a reason you chose said class, and stuck with it. Not diluting it into basically, "Tank, DPS, Healer" classes. These are some really telling moves to the game.
    Why do people believe that making it so a group that can't find a certain class, but are still able to get a silly buff means they are secretly trying to destroy your class?

    Why do you insist that your class should be defined by a single move? Don't you think that hurts the game more than helps it? When I think Hunters, I think ranged physical DPS with pets. When I think Mages, I think of the classic magic user archetypes. When I think Warriors, I think of shield-bearers or axe-welders. And when I think of Shaman, I think of a totem user of 3 types: a healer, a caster, and a melee attacker.

    I do not think of Hunters as "the class with the 10% AP aura" or a Mage as "the class with the Int buff and the spell crit increase". I don't think of Warriors as "the class with an easy ability to destroy armor for my physical DPS." And I don't think of Shaman as "that class with Bloodlust."

    The further we go from that mindset, the better.

    Yes, classes should feel unique, but they shouldn't feel entitled to special treatment. You shouldn't be playing a class just because of Bloodlust or because of an AP bonus or because of a spell crit increase. You should be playing it because you enjoy it. You enjoy the rotations, or you enjoy the mechanics, or you just enjoy the idea of being that class.

    You don't need to be a special snowflake. The only way you can in the Cataclysm game is if you truly excel in your class and spec, which should be a much better idea to go for, IMO.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedevil21 View Post
    QQ I welcome the hunter changes, bought time we got some pet love. Keep it coming blizzard, keep it coming!

    /signed by a hunter ^_^
    Yea, Maybe the old-school hunters will get a new aspect of the game to them. While the nub huntards who make hunters look like tards. Will quit cause using the pet will be "to hard"....

    God if we can get that lucky....(I hate the pants-on-head-tards that infested this game with there syndrome when LK release.

    ---------- Post added 2010-09-15 at 09:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcio View Post
    Why do people believe that making it so a group that can't find a certain class, but are still able to get a silly buff means they are secretly trying to destroy your class?

    Why do you insist that your class should be defined by a single move? Don't you think that hurts the game more than helps it? When I think Hunters, I think ranged physical DPS with pets. When I think Mages, I think of the classic magic user archetypes. When I think Warriors, I think of shield-bearers or axe-welders. And when I think of Shaman, I think of a totem user of 3 types: a healer, a caster, and a melee attacker.

    I do not think of Hunters as "the class with the 10% AP aura" or a Mage as "the class with the Int buff and the spell crit increase". I don't think of Warriors as "the class with an easy ability to destroy armor for my physical DPS." And I don't think of Shaman as "that class with Bloodlust."

    The further we go from that mindset, the better.

    Yes, classes should feel unique, but they shouldn't feel entitled to special treatment. You shouldn't be playing a class just because of Bloodlust or because of an AP bonus or because of a spell crit increase. You should be playing it because you enjoy it. You enjoy the rotations, or you enjoy the mechanics, or you just enjoy the idea of being that class.

    You don't need to be a special snowflake. The only way you can in the Cataclysm game is if you truly excel in your class and spec, which should be a much better idea to go for, IMO.
    Falcio is right here Kiro, What your looking at as "destruction" to the game play. Is actually a much needed and wanted re-re-change to the game. In vanilla raid leaders could have a decent comp of everything due to 40 man raids. Now we have at max a 25man. So at one point. In big guilds you have to decide what class's make the cut and others don't. Your looking for the best raid comp you can get. So you want the 5% crit from a druid aura for your melee. While a 5% spell crit from the boom-chickens. With changes like this to hunters pet. It gives a utility even more utility, While saying. This shaman does less dmg as a whole than a hunter, So the hunter brings his BL/Hero pet and helps the group as a whole. I'm sure there is more to it. But that is the basic idea behind it.

    ---------- Post added 2010-09-15 at 09:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Anium View Post
    You're a fool.
    Anium is so correct here, Shamans were considered OP once. And there still considered OP in their own right. BL might be in a hand basket for classes who would otherwise not have it. But shamans don't have a internal cd on windfurry anymore. Which was the reason shamans were OP in vanilla, Due to the fact you could make 6 hits in one swing in PVP. (autoattack, windfurry 1-2, windfurry 1-2, autoattack). Frost shock just yelled NO RUNSIES!

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by dwbrown7680 View Post
    Looking at this from the PvP side of things, Hunters are already known for retarded fast damage. Add in Camo and the ability to grab almost any buff/debuff they need for their team and this could get quite OP quite quickly. Although from a PvE standpoint it is a pretty nice welcome change.
    We have to be out of combat to switch pets, Camo won't work on the new pet brought it, and you can still "see" us in camo, but you can't target us. A quick AoE will break us out of it. And it only lasts a minute with a... 2 min cooldown? Can't remember.

    Another thing to remember is that pet abilities that did damage before aren't doing so now. Additionally, in order to get the Heroism/Bloodlust buff, hunters have to be Beast Mastery... and Big Red Hunter-Pet no longer makes us immune to CC for 10 seconds. It'll break CC, though, giving us some use there. So we can't Big-Red ourselves, Hero/Blood, and pop out of Camo (the extra damage from this ability was also taken away) and take out an entire group. We're still killable, folks- I play an Ele Shaman hardcore in pvp and Heroism does not always save my butt- it's a nice boon, really, but nothing that'll break pvp.

    ---------- Post added 2010-09-15 at 06:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiro View Post
    Absolutely terrible change with giving out Bloodlust and basically the ability to hand out any buff at will via hunter pets. By far the most stupid thing Blizzard has done to date. They are really trying to kill this game off. They gave it to yet another class that has a ton of utility already. This could have been seen coming though since they gave it out to mages though, further diluting this game into the abyss of homogenization-hell.

    Honestly, these changes have gone too far. When is this dumbing down, watering down, homogenization process going to come to an end? It's like Blizzard is actually TRYING to kill off their game with their sheer laziness now.

    This can be blamed on all the people who cheered Blizzard on each time they copy and pasted item models, abilities, and effects. Only people who don't see this as a bad thing are hunters, those who are going to make a hunter their main now, and the mobs of people that still say Blizzard can do no wrong.

    Seriously. Make classes feel unique from each other again. Make there be a reason you chose said class, and stuck with it. Not diluting it into basically, "Tank, DPS, Healer" classes. These are some really telling moves to the game.
    Dang, I'm sorry, I forgot to bring my tote-... wait, I don't have totems. I have... True Shot Aura!... oh, DKs have it too. Hm... I'm.. ranged physical damage!...

    What about the hunter says "I'm a perfect class that can do everything"? Last I checked, we were considered a "pure dps class"... that is, we ONLY DPS. We are versatile for solo play, but then again, what class isn't versatile? Druids can do four different roles in a raid, shaman can do three, paladins can do three, priests can do two, as well as DKs and warriors. We need to be giving boons to pure dps classes, otherwise you'd see a general lack of these pure dps classes showing up in your raids because people want that DPSer that can also switch to a healer role. THAT'S versatility. There's no encounter in ICC or any of the Wrath raids that say "We NEED a hunter;" you hear raids needing Heroism for that extra burst for encounters like Blood Queen, or druids for battle rez.. but no one has said "We need a hunter to complete this raid."

    With these new hunter pet boons, we're no longer going to be penalized for being a pure dps class by bringing certain raid buffs to raids that otherwise would not have them, therefore making our class more marketable to raid. Why would a hunter want to bring a pet that can do Heroism/Bloodlust if there's already a shaman or a mage? We can bring other utility pets to fill in other missing raid elements. If anything, it's giving us versatility where we had none of it previously.

    Buffs do not create an entire class. Their mechanics do- hunters play differently from any other class and that works between all the other classes entirely. I would not feel like a shaman if I am a hunter (who has to be a certain spec, mind you, in order to get the Heroism-ability pet, unlike shaman who just.. get it) with a corehound pet. Heroism/Bloodlust does not a shaman or a mage make.
    Last edited by Arisette; 2010-09-16 at 12:02 AM.

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