Shadowy Apparition

[Lexxe]

The answer is no, obviously. It comes back to the balance between "Guarantee" and "Proc"

It's the same reason why you don't put Black Magic on your weapon.

When I test on the ptr I notice about a 500 dps increase if i jiggle when I have to reapply my plague, and when I use swd. If I take the time to plan it out and I have 2 GCDs in a row from reapplying plague and swd back to back, it goes up a bit from there even.

So yes. Jiggling is a very good thing to do for any spriest in the expac. Even if you use your mouse to click those two buttons while you use your strafe keys to move back and forth, or use keybinds and your middle mouse button(if you didn't rebind it) to move forward while you use them two buttons.

[Juravil]

I think It would be a good idea to have a Minor Glyph that transforms the current look of Shadowy Apparitions into smaller fps-eater :-). E.g. Those Shadowbolts they were before.



- They vanish as soon as you leave combat. They don't attack anything on their own.
- Not sure, but it's reasonable to think they can. Just like Shadowfiend.

I Know that they vanished, but the aggro-range from "pets" and "range-attack" are different. When you attack you don't pull the mobs near the target, but if you loot or release your shadowfriend you can pull them.

[Annesh]

Well, realistically you have two instants to cast. Plague and Death.

Moving is fine for them, but you have to think one thing about it. The latency involved before the game realizes you stop moving is delaying your next mind flay tick, so the "chance" to proc, even if it increases 5x, may not outweigh remaining stationary.

Jiggling vs not jiggling is equivalent to the difference between a 0% chance and a 1% chance - it is clearly, provably, mathematically, higher DPS. I'm not sure how anyone could say it "might not outweigh" not jiggling.

Not doing it gives you nothing. Doing it gives you the chance that a SWP tick will happen during the 1.5ish second you're moving, and a 5x higher chance to proc a copy.

You could say that it's a minute increase and therefore not worth it for you, but those who min/max will be doing it, and it will therefore become the "correct" way to DPS as shadow, and those who don't do it will be called noobs.

[Kelesti]

Like those who clip mind flay versus those who don't, when clipping results in a higher "real" loss of DPS that a simulator can't show you? The same thing applies here.

Both globals don't line up at the same time. So you're either delaying one (lost DPS) or you're casting them independently of eachother. And telling your game that you're moving for one and only one global might work for an offline game, but you bring server-client latency into this, and you've effectively delayed your cast.

Especially considering said global won't even mean Pain ticks during that time frame.

"Jiggling" has too much potential to be lost DPS, pretending to be a gain. It's an advantage when you're already moving, but not something you can or should be expected to put into practice without a sub 50 ping. Min maxing applies to the bigger picture, not just one particular instance.

It all comes down to this: You can't outskill lag.

[Thrayne]

Like those who clip mind flay versus those who don't, when clipping results in a higher "real" loss of DPS that a simulator can't show you? The same thing applies here.

Both globals don't line up at the same time. So you're either delaying one (lost DPS) or you're casting them independently of eachother. And telling your game that you're moving for one and only one global might work for an offline game, but you bring server-client latency into this, and you've effectively delayed your cast.

Especially considering said global won't even mean Pain ticks during that time frame.

"Jiggling" has too much potential to be lost DPS, pretending to be a gain. It's an advantage when you're already moving, but not something you can or should be expected to put into practice without a sub 50 ping. Min maxing applies to the bigger picture, not just one particular instance.

It all comes down to this: You can't outskill lag.

I don't understand how people can still validate MF clipping is still min/maxing.

I'm missing a haste weapon, wand and trinket for BiS (debatably) that along with 4 pc T10 mt entire Mindflay is 1.86 per mindflay which is 0.62 seconds between each tick.

The average human reaction time is 0.02 sec (200 milliseconds) and my average ping is 250 ms. The total reaction/ping error is + 0.045. So the window of reaction time is very very small, I'm not even including fully raid buffed haste but this was enough to show unless you are a superhuman and a psychic that knows the changes in ping, clipping Mindflay at this level isn't min/maxing.



OT: I don't see "jiggling" being min/maxing because of interference with casting of other spells. Maybe when if your DP and SW: P line up for 3.0 second of GCDs, but still very minimal if at all.

[Kelesti]

Agreed. And my ping itself rides safely around the 110 mark, but it's still not enough to justify the perfect clip to actually increase my DPS. Addons, macros, and common foresight do not allow me to surpass what my latency has laid out for me.

And now people want to imply that a technique that requires sub-50 ping is "the real way to play unless you're noobs". Right. I know people that live 16 blocks from the physical server, with 58. Unless a person was to drive to the server, drill a hole into your Cerebellum, and "Jack In" a la Matrix style, it's just not realistic, no matter how much "math" says it is.

[Thrayne]

C'mon Kelesti if you aren't doing it matrix style you aren't min/maxing. No Excuses!

[Kelesti]

C'mon Kelesti if you aren't doing it matrix style you aren't min/maxing. No Excuses!

If you're willing to pay for the installation as well as the maintenance, then I'll start that level of min-maxing. I'll even cover the plane tickets myself.

[Annesh]

Kelesti, I'm not sure what you're talking about, because I don't see how it's up for discussion that jiggling for the GCD after each instant you cast results in higher DPS.

Literally, it's a choice between standing still for 1.2 - 1.5 seconds, or jiggling for the chance that a swp tick will happen while moving.

Lag doesn't factor into it, because swp ticks and actual movement timing is all calculated on the server side. No one is going to be intentionally trying to time their movement with swp ticks - just when GCD'd by instants.

Yeah, the potential DPS gain is so tiny as to be utterly unnoticeable, but the min-maxers will still do it, and that's why I hate shadowy apparitions as they stand.

[Thrayne]

Kelesti, I'm not sure what you're talking about, because I don't see how it's up for discussion that jiggling for the GCD after each instant you cast results in higher DPS.

Literally, it's a choice between standing still for 1.2 - 1.5 seconds, or jiggling for the chance that a swp tick will happen while moving.

Lag doesn't factor into it, because swp ticks and actual movement timing is all calculated on the server side. No one is going to be intentionally trying to time their movement with swp ticks - just when GCD'd by instants.

Yeah, the potential DPS gain is so tiny as to be utterly unnoticeable, but the min-maxers will still do it, and that's why I hate shadowy apparitions as they stand.

That wasn't the lag she was talking about. She is talking about the GCD actually being during a GCD or not and your telling your toon to move when actually you could be casting.

[Tuvok]

Jiggling vs not jiggling is equivalent to the difference between a 0% chance and a 1% chance - it is clearly, provably, mathematically, higher DPS. I'm not sure how anyone could say it "might not outweigh" not jiggling.

Not doing it gives you nothing. Doing it gives you the chance that a SWP tick will happen during the 1.5ish second you're moving, and a 5x higher chance to proc a copy.

You could say that it's a minute increase and therefore not worth it for you, but those who min/max will be doing it, and it will therefore become the "correct" way to DPS as shadow, and those who don't do it will be called noobs.

You're forgetting human factor. Jiggling means a person may well jiggle for more time than they are supposed to!

[Annesh]

Maybe I have more faith in humanity than Kelesti!

Okay actually I just don't see how moving actually increases the chances of losing casting time vs just standing there for GCDs. It's a practice thing, I think. It's provably worth slightly more DPS, so the goods will practice it and get good at it.

[Thrayne]

It is just a fact that what you see on your screen isn't always happening on your screen at that time. I really don't see it being a seperation of "goods" and "bads" because there is no guarentee SWP will tick during the movement.

[Annesh]

No, there's not, but there's no guarantee it won't, either. It's definitely a question of luck, but it's the difference between a guaranteed 0.0% increase over the DPS of just standing still, versus the potential for like a .5% increase by cheating to the sides.

[Blackmorgrim]

In general, I usually move during GCDs anyway... I won't notice much of a difference anyway.

[Skandulous]

ppl might want to try it when cata hits especially since the 4piece t11 set bonus buff the crit strike chance of you shadowy apparitions by 30%

[Krisaga]

It's unfortunate that the apparitions move so slow.

In pvp is should be quite easy for people to simply move away from them, and it seems they despawn after a moderate distance.

[steviewonder]

<3 Spriest. Might actually level mine

[nevermore]

Am I the only one who thinks the Shadowy Apparitions should look like those little irritating buggers (Shadow Image) during the Twin Eredars fight?

Lady Sacrolash
You can kinda see one on the 2nd (which is the 3rd O.o ) screenshot.