Ret Talent: Selfless Healer

[Logicknot]

So I have been doing some testing and posting on the wow forums for some feed back about the talent selfless healer.

At first looking at it, it seemed like an expensive healing buff for ret.

After talking about it for a while on the WoW forums and testing it out by working it into my rotation I have come to some facts about it.

First and most obvious. Using word of glory is a flat DPS loss no questions asked.
So knowing that it is a DPS loss to use it and selfless healer gives a DPS buff for casting word of glory we have to assume that part of the talent is to increase our dps
After testing I see it is still a DPS loss
So we then have to assume that the DPS buff on selfless healer is not to provide more DPS but to mitigate the loss of DPS caused by healing others.

So I think my logic there is pretty good

Now Lets look at the DPS increase more closley

It increase your damage by 2%/4% for 10 seconds per point of holy power used to a maximum damage increase of 12%

Now my problem with this is I don't think the length of the buff is long enough. Here is a brief timeline for how long it takes to get full holy power using nothing but CS

0 CS
3.9 CS
7.8 CS
GCD 1.5
9.3s TV

This leaves about a .7 second buffer for us to get TV off with the damage increase

Now if for some reason we had casted Word of glory right after using CS then CS will be on CD

0 CS
GCD 1.5
1.5 WoG
GCD 1.5
3.9 CS
7.8 CS
11.7 CS

Now I don't have enough time to get a TV in with the damage increase

So at this point I'm not starting to feel that the talent is a bit half baked and could use some changes for it to be more useful to us and worth sinking the points into it.

---------- Post added 2010-09-15 at 04:46 AM ----------

So lets look at some ideas for changing the damage bonus on selfless healer.

First and easiest is make the buff last longer. 15 seconds I think would be plenty

Now instead of it being a DPS increase we could have it do something else that helps us speed up getting back into our rotation

Some ideas include

Refreshing the CD on CS
Causing the next source of none periodic holy damage to generate holy power
Causes the next source of holy power to generate 2 holy power
Allows you to cast consecrate for free (cause it so damn expensive now no ret paladin dares to use it)
Cast divine storm without any holy power as if you had 3 holy power

i think any of these ideas would be more interesting then a flat damage increase and would be more useful as well

[Ronark]

Think of SH as a "DPs refund" for healing instead of casting TV.

We won't be balanced around keep it up.

[Logicknot]

Think of SH as a "DPs refund" for healing instead of casting TV.

We won't be balanced around keep it up.

I am not looking for it to be something to be kept up with inquisition I think i will have enough things to worry about.

It's just kind of confusing that the talent makes you heal your allies better and provides a DPS increase. Those two things are pretty conflicting.

I'm just hoping to have a better chance to get off my big damage(TV) with the damage buff or have something that allows me to get back into my rotation faster after using it.

[talitu]

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/26726...-lacks-choice/

if we are indeed moving into a time were healer mana matters we may be for the first time since pretty early vanilla be in a situation were off healers are going to pick up some slack.

your theory craft is missing one thing if you dont use it and the tank dies your dps will likely drop to zero along with everyone elses in a few brutal seconds .

i think its balanced talent for doubling the affect of the heal without the dps boost, i think thats there as a bribe, its to get out of the dps mindset of only looking at recount's dps reports.

[Ronark]

I am not looking for it to be something to be kept up with inquisition I think i will have enough things to worry about.

It's just kind of confusing that the talent makes you heal your allies better and provides a DPS increase. Those two things are pretty conflicting.

I'm just hoping to have a better chance to get off my big damage(TV) with the damage buff or have something that allows me to get back into my rotation faster after using it.

It is because it was a significant DPS loss to use WoG over a TV- The amount healed was not able to justify its use.

With the 12% damage refund, it is not as much of a DPS loss.

[Logicknot]

I like how you called it a bribe. It made me lol at ret pallies who will take it cause it increases dps and other talent don't.

Blizz must think we are so predictable

[fizikz]

I am not looking for it to be something to be kept up with inquisition I think i will have enough things to worry about.

It's just kind of confusing that the talent makes you heal your allies better and provides a DPS increase. Those two things are pretty conflicting.

I'm just hoping to have a better chance to get off my big damage(TV) with the damage buff or have something that allows me to get back into my rotation faster after using it.

you think so? I don't. you skipped out on using TV, a dps loss. so to make the loss not so terrible you'd never think about not doing it, they put a bit of damage buff in so you can "catch up" in damage after missin gthat TV. I don't see it as a huge issue that it's hard to get a TV off with the buff up, because the rest of your damage is still affected by it.

[talitu]

I like how you called it a bribe. It made me lol at ret pallies who will take it cause it increases dps and other talent don't.

Blizz must think we are so predictable

hehe well i dont single out rets with this its pandemic amongst all dps. for too long the game has been stripped down to two basic numbers , gearscore and recount.

myself i long for a return of the ret you choose to group with is the one that spots those needed heals. stuns runners is fast to bop a healer etc. ie a return to skill and players playing rather than filling in spreadsheets and linking your worth.

[Nangz]

The point of the talent is to encourage hyrbrids to heal themselves or others when they are capable. Including and especially when there are no targets to dps.

You have no idea how often i've seen hybrid melee just standing there when blood queen is sitting in the air or hybrid casters just standing there when there is nothing to dps at the moment on valithria.

You can toss out some heals now for benefit and for even more benefit you get a damage increase for when you can dps again. Whats the problem?

[Demox]

You can toss out some heals now for benefit and for even more benefit you get a damage increase for when you can dps again. Whats the problem?

Judging by OP's post, your dps is is more important somebody's life. The problem is losing your DPS to save a healer from dying or another DPS from dying, because apparently if he doesn't heal them he can output the DPS equivalent to two people or more. (His DPS gets higher the more people that die because he doesn't want to be a selfless healer)

[Logicknot]

I no way am i saying it should increase my dps cause its a ret ability. I am saying that the way it mitigates the dps loss seems bland and boring. Blizz has said that dps is fun cause we like to see big numbers. I would love to see a bigger TV cause i have this buff for a few more seconds or have it provide some way for me to get back into my rotation faster.

As for your example with blood queen and hybrid classes not healing during other phases. I always do. I try my best to make life easier for the other class

Its why i have focus macros to cast salv on the big threat makers, why i throw out heals in 5 mans or heal myself in raids

I become a much better hybrid class by simply having a macro that says /cast [target=Focus/name of player] spell

This hole craziness that im a better player by healing others is absurd when i am a superior player with a simple macro

Just wanted to take a look at a talent that is new and resently implemented into the beta and have some suggestions about it. Not a QQ ret talents don't all provide dps.

I think we can all agree DPS don't like to do other stuff cause it slows us down but if we can make throwing out that other stuff fun we wont have as much problems with doing it.

flat damage increase for throwing out a heal is not fun or interesting in any way

[manageri]

I think they should scrap the whole damage increase part of the talent. As situational as it is dps is still dps and so it's not really an optional talent unless you never use WoG in a raid.

[Natrii]

When I actually go ret I will have WoG focus macro ed to my tank, so i can use it in times of spike damage. Honestly I really love the idea that hybrid actively acting like hybrids.

[Ronark]

I think they should scrap the whole damage increase part of the talent. As situational as it is dps is still dps and so it's not really an optional talent unless you never use WoG in a raid.

The damage part is to act as a "refund" for using WoG over a TV.

Instead of dealing 15,000 damage over 1 second (form TV), you instead deal say 7,453 additional damage over 12 seconds (from the SH proc).

DPS loss? Indeed, but it is now less of a DPS loss.

[Natrii]

The damage part is to act as a "refund" for using WoG over a TV.

Instead of dealing 15,000 damage over 1 second (form TV), you instead deal say 7,453 additional damage over 12 seconds (from the SH proc).

DPS loss? Indeed, but it is now less of a DPS loss.

Dps loss < keeping tank alive. Like I said it is an interesting mechanic. Though I'm disappointed WoG hits harder for ret using selfless healer than i hit for it in holy.

[Ronark]

Dps loss < keeping tank alive. Like I said it is an interesting mechanic. Though I'm disappointed WoG hits harder for ret using selfless healer than i hit for it in holy.

Thats the exact reason why Selfless Healer makes you do increased DPS.

[manageri]

The damage part is to act as a "refund" for using WoG over a TV.

Instead of dealing 15,000 damage over 1 second (form TV), you instead deal say 7,453 additional damage over 12 seconds (from the SH proc).

DPS loss? Indeed, but it is now less of a DPS loss.

Yea, so you do more dps compared to if you had picked up another filler talent like acts of sacrifice, and that's the problem. Unless they still change things around in the talent trees we'll have very few real talent choises, and by my count this change to selfless healer just lowered those to none.

[Ronark]

Yea, so you do more dps compared to if you had picked up another filler talent like acts of sacrifice, and that's the problem. Unless they still change things around in the talent trees we'll have very few real talent choises, and by my count this change to selfless healer just lowered those to none.

That depends.

If we have such "burst/sustained" threat, then AoS might even be a better DPS gain (using HoS to permanently reduce TPS).

[dan.tabris]

On the PTR at least, threat is a much greater constraint than it is on live. The reduced cooldown on Hand of Salv comes in very handy.

[Ronark]

On the PTR at least, threat is a much greater constraint than it is on live. The reduced cooldown on Hand of Salv comes in very handy.

Except on the PTR, damage needs to be adjusted, as well as MoBs stats.